Karin Combo/Tech Thread

Street Fighter V Karin
301

I just got around to watching some NCR replays from the top players, wondering which buttons they use, combos, confirms, anti-airs etc. Anyway, it’s pretty obvious that neither Justin nor Mago can confirm off of cr.mk. (For instance, see Justin at 1:23, 1:29, 2:43, 4:50, 5:41, 6:14, 9:19, 9:33, 10:38, 10:56, 12:46, and 13:33, or Mago at 2:21 and 2:44.)

So frame data seems to imply cr.mk isn’t confirmable, and top players can’t do it. I guess the upshot, for someone like me who’s nowhere near being a top player, is that if it is possible, it must be hard, so there are other things I should work on first. It’s definitely not “essential” at this point in the game.

302

Definitely not essential. What I like to say about Justin is that his footsies and SFV is very strong, but his Karin is weak. His combos are very unoptimized, what is oki? and there’s almost nothing technical about what he does, yet he does very well in SFV because he’s focusing on what’s actually essential, and that’s a strong footsie game. And it kinda hurts my soul when he then loses in a tournament because he didn’t practice landing her super in the corner.

Mago have the combos and tech but haven’t been as successful as Justin when you take into account how unoptimized he plays Karin.

303

Guys, it’s me or cr.mk into Orochi is really tough to do? Doesn’t combo or I’m just too slow? I have no problem in cancel cr.mk into jft,but Orochi.
@Kattchips You’re right about Justin and Mago, they need to do a dbz fusion. The first use Karin footsies in the right way, but he isn’t used to optimized her damage maybe because of his lame game style, the latter knows how to do damage,but still hasn’t the total control of Karin superior footsies,especially on defense. We need to take the best of these two atm.

304

cr.mk doesn’t combo into orochi unless it’s a counterhit.

I think Mago has a better Karin than Justin Wong. SFV is a very offensive game and I think Mago’s aggressive style will be better in the long run.

305

crmk > orochi isn’t safe on block, there’s a huge gap between there as well. Actually the only thing she can do from crmk that can’t be stuffed after blocked crmk is tenko.

Block a karin crmk? Jab. If she went for orochi congrats you now won.

306

I’m a 37 year old with ass reactions who plays this game maybe 1 hour a week, if that. If I can do this, anyone can.

Forget what the frame data says. cr.mk is late-cancellable. Confirm this for yourself by doing point-blank cr.mk xx LK mujinkyaku. Combos, right? Now delay the mujinkyaku slightly and you’ll see it cancels but it won’t combo. cr.mk -1 on hit. Cancelling means you get the remaining active frame + recovery as frame advantage (14f - 1 = 13f). Mujin has 11f startup which means for it not to combo, I would have had to cancel it during cr.mk’s recovery frames. Which of course implies it’s late-cancellable. How many late-cancellable frames there are, I cannot say, but it’s certainly less than what it was in beta 2.

The window between where it’s cancellable and where it isn’t is your hit-confirm window. You don’t need to do any complex motions during that period. You confirm the yellow hit-spark and press a button (or in the case of JFT, you slide LK LP MP - at least that’s what I do).

You shouldn’t have too much trouble with it if you’re used to 3S confirms. If you absolutely can’t do it you might be playing on a laggy setup. Also remember that noone has 100% accuracy on cancel-confirms. What you’re aiming for a low false-negative ratio, and a non-existent false-positive ratio.

Even in this sample I don’t get it 100% on hit. The point is I never accidentally do it on block (check the input display):

Don’t worry if you aren’t good at it yet. It’s going to be a while before people get 1-hit cancel confirms down in this game. You don’t even see Chun players use cr.mk confirms much.

This game has strange cancel properties. I believe that it’s relatively easy to confirm st.hp into tenko (try it), but it’s nigh impossible to confirm it into super. So there does appear to be 2 cancel windows. However, cr.mk can be confirmed into super or special.

307

Yeah, don’t forget there’s also hitstop frames for you to confirm, not only pure frame data.

Also, for the guy who asked the best mujin version for oki:

Also, empty low xx EX mujin is good because it’s safe and against character with not invincible reversal you can immediately charged v-skill for a meaty.

I don’t think there’s enough time to make a set play for heavy mujin , needs testing.

308

This. The confirm is difficult (harder than a lot of the 3S cancel confirms, though not Ken c.MK-levels of difficult), but it’s definitely possible.

s.MP also seems single-hit confirmable. I’m planning on practicing that one since I land a lot of far range counter-hits with that button that don’t really lead into anything. I believe s.HP has two cancel windows, but single-hit confirming that seems less useful than just canceling into seppo and confirming that into non-JF tenko on hit. On block you can go for orochi (true blockstring), delayed orochi (gives huge damage on trade) or throw. Same with c.HP, though you can actually get crush counter combos with that.

309

Thanks for the reply. My confusion with the frame data wasn’t about whether cr.mk is late-cancellable (my post on the frame data implied that it was), it’s whether it puts the opponent into hitstun long enough to react to the hit.

Yep I agree with this, but would add it’s possible to get a low false positive rate just by having a low baseline rate of cr.mk -> tenko.

For instance, suppose I’m in the training room and I’m trying to see whether or not I can confirm. For simplicity, suppose I’m one of two types (either A or B ). Type A just randomly cancels cr.mk -> tenko 25% of the time, hit or block (i.e. type A can’t confirm). Type B cancels to tenko 50% on hit, but only 5% on block (type B can confirm, but, as you said, not with 100% accuracy). In training mode, how many trials would I have to observe before I could be sure (probability > 95%) that I could really confirm (i.e. that I’m type B, not type A)? It turns out it requires 17 trials on average! Anyway, the point is that if you allow significant error rates, the difference between confirming and not confirming is quite subtle.

310

Hey guys, I did a lot of tests in the labs. I post here my mixups/setups I found myself in training, because I don’t wanna be selfish.
All of them are post Tenko setups; I’ll maybe do some other setups when i’ll have the time, like after ex orochi, ex ressenha, etc… but this already took me more than 2 hours of intense training, so this is it for now.

Karin Post-Tenko SETPLAY

-Tenko, Just Frame Tenko
2LP whiff, Ressenha MP (rapid wakeup)
→ Can confirm 2MP, 2MK, Tenko

Dash, Delay 1 frame → Ressenha MP (back wakeup)
→ Can confirm 2MP, 2MK, Tenko

2LP whiff, Ressenha MP whiff, Dash forward, Meioken hold (normal wakeup)
→ Can confirm V-Trigger to Guren Ken / Tenko to Ex Ressenha if corner / Super
If blocked : cr.MP counter hits every normals, cr.HP crush counters 4 frames normals

-Tenko, Orochi
Ressenha MP (rapid wakeup)
→ Can confirm 2LP Tenko

Dash forward, Dash forward, 2MP (back wakeup)
→ Counters reversals normals.

Dash forward, Dash forward, 2HP (back wakeup)
→ CRUSH counters reversals normals (even 3f)

Dash forward, Dash forward, Meioken, Meioken hold (normal wakeup)
→ Can confirm V-Trigger to Guren Ken / Tenko to Ex Ressenha if corner / Super
If blocked : cr.MP counter hits every normals, cr.HP doesn’t crush counters 4 frames normals

-Tenko, Mujin LK
2LP whiff, Ressenha MP (rapid wakeup)
→ Can confirm 2LP Tenko

2MP whiff, Meioken hold (rapid wakeup)
→ Can confirm V-Trigger to Guren Ken / Tenko to Ex Ressenha if corner / Super
If blocked : cr.MP counter hits every normals, cr.HP crush counters 4 frames normals

Dash forward, Ressenha MP (back wakeup)
→ Can confirm 2LP Tenko

Dash forward, Dash forward, 2LP whiff, 2MP (back wakeup)
→ Counters reversals normals.

Dash forward, Dash forward, 2LP whiff, 2HP (back wakeup)
→ Crush counters reversals normals 4 frames min.

Empty jump forward, 2MK (back wakeup)
→ Can late confirm into Tenko

Empty jump forward, 2HP (back wakeup)
→ Crush counters normals (even 3f)

2MP whiff, Meioken hold whiff, Dash forward, Meioken hold (normal wakeup)
→ Can confirm V-Trigger to Guren Ken / Tenko to Ex Ressenha if corner / Super
If blocked : cr.MP counter hits every normals, cr.HP crush counters 4 frames normals

2MP whiff, Dash forward, Dash backwards, 5LK whiff, Ressenha MP (normal wakeup)
→ Can confirm 2MP, 2MK, Tenko

2MP whiff, Dash forward, Dash backwards, 5LK whiff, forward jump j.MK (normal wakeup)
→ Making Ryu’s shoryu MP whiff, didn’t try others reversal of the game. Hitting front

2MP whiff, Dash Forward, Dash backwards, 5MP whiff, forward jump j.MK (normal wakeup)
→ Making reversals whiff and this time, can hit front or cross-up depending the delay. Most ambiguous cross-up ever

-Tenko, Meioken
Forward jump j.MK (rapid wakeup)
→ Can hit front or cross-up depending the delay. Really ambiguous cross-up. Also making reversals whiff

2LP whiff, Meioken hold (rapid wakeup)
→ Can confirm V-Trigger to Guren Ken / Ex Ressenha if corner / Super
If blocked : cr.LP counters 4 frames but trade with 3 frames normals

Dash forward, 2LP whiff, 2MP (rapid wakeup)
→ Counters everything

Dash forward, 2LP whiff, 2HP (rapid wakeup)
→ Crush counters everything

Delay something like 2 frames, Ressenha MP (back wakeup)
→ Can confirm into 2MP, 2MK, Tenko

Dash forward, Dash forward, 2MP (back wakeup)
→ Counters everything

Dash forward, Dash forward, 2HP (back wakeup)
→ Crush Counters everything

Dash forward, Dash forward, 5MP whiff, neutral jump HK (normal wakeup)
→ Safe jumps 4 frames reversal. Very good

Dash forward, Dash forward, 5LP whiff, Dash backwards, Ressenha LP (normal wakeup)
→ Can confirm into 2LP, Tenko but if guarded, -4 so that’s not a very good setup

2MP whiff, Dash forward, 2MP whiff, Dash forward, Meioken hold (normal wakeup)
→ Can confirm V-Trigger to Guren Ken / Tenko to Ex Ressenha if corner / Super
If blocked : cr.MP counter hits every normals, cr.HP crush counters 4 frames normals

I hope you’ll guys will like these setups like I do! I think Ressenha MP meaty is very strong, because a lot of my setups are making it hitting at the last active frame so you can link cr.MP after, and it lets you at -2 in block only so it’s kind of safe.
Meioken meaty is very strong too; it does so much blockstun you can go for every gimmicks you want.

I didn’t do corner setups neither, I just realized it… Well I’ll do it later with the other setups. Hope you guys will like it anyway

311

idk if MP ressenha meaty is -2 . All the meaty ressenha set ups got beat by 4 frame jabs and throws. i could be doing it wrong. can you show them in a video where its -2.

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I can’t do any video unfortunately because I run the game on a potato laptopp, but if you are not at -2, you are doing it wrong anyways.
Some of my setups let you at -3 (the ones with ressenha LP, and the ones where you can’t link ressenha MP with 2MP) but most of them let you at -2.

It’s simple: if you can link 2MP, then ressenha MP is hitting at the last active frame possible (the 4th). That means you are at +5 on hit, -2 on block instead of +2 on hit, -5 on block when you do a ressenha MP non-meaty.

You need to adapt these setups during a match and analyze how does your opponent tech.

314

maybe someone on here can make a video where meaty mp ressenha is -2 on block. i only tried it for 5 mins ill try again tomorrow.

315

cool. i got it to be -2 .

316

I’ve done s.MP on reaction some times, it’s definitely doable with practice. I also get a lot of far counter s.MP, and i’ve seen cr.MK whiff after that, so probably tenko will whiff as well. I think the safest option is to buffer ex mujin (needs to be done really fast and acurate) so you get the damage, position and oki. You have to be well aware of your spacing to choose JFT without a millisecond of doubt.

317

Just thought I’d mention this
Optimal Midscreen Combo for 1 Bar with V-Trigger:

cr.mp->st.mpxx JFT->EX JFT->Guren Ken (first hit whiffs)xx Guren Ken follow ups.

If you don’t want to switch sides, you should do Guren>delayed elbow>delayed slide (max damage/best oki). When I do this I actually delay the EX JFT very slightly as well, to make sure I’m hitting my opponent low enough with Guren Ken to connect with Elbow>Slide (Guren 2P>2K). If you want to switch sides with the combo you can just do Guren Ken>elbow>turn around elbow (guren 2P>2P). This does the same damage as the elbow->slide ender. I saw Mago practicing this combo but I can’t find the video now. I’ll post it if I do, though I think he was just ending with elbow. Also, note that getting Guren Ken>Elbow>Slide can be somewhat tricky and misses if they’re too high.
This even does more damage than a non VT 1 bar corner combo (tenko>tenko>ex rassen) so I guess it should be used in the corner as well. Although thats pretty tough it would be somewhat difficult (haven’t tried it in the corner myself) since you’d have to delay the Guren Ken a lot.

318

Nice. I’ll have to try it. Can you activate VT mid combo for this one? like after the first or second Tenko?

Also does the tenko have to be JF for this all to work?

319

@S_Kelson neat combo, didn’t think this was possible.

@ArmoredMirage Seems like you have to do JFT then a pretty fast EX tenko afterwards so they’re high enough to get hit by the gurenken. And no you can not go into vtrigger after either tenko to continue the combo, you can do tenko trigger ex tenko but you won’t get gurenken followups.

I crunched some numbers to see worth.

vtrigger crmp > stmp xx jft > ex tenko > gurenken hosho 331 / 449 (Added 43 / 63 for the meter compared to meterless)

Combo into vtrigger with 1 meter:
crmp > stmp xx trigger > sthp xx jft > ex tenko > gurenken hosho = 328 / 476
crmp > stmp xx ex orochi > vskill (hold) xx trigger > gurenken hosho = 326 / 535

320

Ok, adding to what @Kattchips started doing, I’ve written down the damage/stun values for the 1 bar VT combo with different follow ups. The damage actually usually gets lower if you transition into VT because of scaling added from VT->st.HP. However the stun goes up when you add the st.HP.
EDIT: You CANNOT slide under your opponent after an elbow with this combo. They are too far in front of you. Also, this combo does not work in the corner :bawling: It seems like the 2nd hit of Gurenken has better juggle properties than the 1st hit, so in the corner you cannot make this connect (lining up the 2nd hit requires that you whiff the 1st, which will cross under your opponent)

Transitioning into VT:

cr.mp->st.mp xx VT->st.hp xx JFT->EX JFT->Gurenken (1st hit whiffs) xx delayed Elbow xx delayed Slide (2P>2K) = 328 Damage / 481 Stun

…->Gurenken xx Elbow xx Turn Around Elbow (2P>2P) = 328 Damage / 471 Stun
…->Gurenken xx Palm (5P) = 328 Damage / 476 Stun
…->Gurenken xx Elbow = 316 Damage / 461 Stun

Already in VT:

cr.mp->st.mp xx JFT->EX JFT->Gurenken xx delayed Elbow xx delayed Slide = 335 Damage / 464 Stun

…->Gurenken xx Elbow xx Turn Around Elbow = 335 Damage / 444 Stun
…->Gurenken xx Palm = 331 Damage / 449 Stun
…->Gurenken xx Elbow = 311 Damage / 424 Stun