No, read my post again, you can only juggle infinitely if you do a special move that puts your opponent on FLOAT state, then following it up with another
special move that puts your opponent on float state.
EX fireballs put your opponent on juggle state, not float state.
That’s one thing I forgot to mention on my first post, you can only put your opponent on float state more than 2 times if the second move is a special move that has such property.
That’s the special move float state I mentioned above. =)
EDIT: Did some testing, the juggle potential thing is true for moves that have “pursuit”/“can juggle” properties.
I can’t really figure out how Ken’s EX DP works though, I will need to do some more testing.
Gouken’s FB’s don’t reset the count, they just don’t add to it, because the opponent is in float state, and they incur float state.
Those fireballs actually have NO juggle potential. They are just hitting because the opponent is in float state (where anything will hit), and when they get hit by the fireball, they are in float state again… Put the opponent into standard knockdow state (after 2-hit jump MP for example) and try to juggle with a fireball, you can’t.
EDIT:
Can you share an example? I know with Gouken I can incur 2 float states with 2 1-hit jump MPs. I just see no evidence that would support that statement. As far as I can tell, you should be able to juggle with float-inducing moves indefinitely, as long as you use only these types of moves.
Ah, that would certainly explain being able to pretty harshly juggle someone in the corner with EX gouken balls =P
And I really have to disagree that lp.srk is 0 JP Cyborg Cop. Otherwise, you’d be able to connect both hits of EX.FB afterward, but this isn’t the case. So it has to have a JP of 1, otherwise anything that has JP would be able to fully connect afterward.
The only example I can think of is Gouken’s fireballs… the only other special move that puts you on float state that I know of is Akuma’s LK Tatsu, and it recovers too slowly to be followed up by another LK Tatsu.
I previously thought Ken’s EX DP put you in float state, but after testing it it turned out to be a juggle-enabled move with weird juggle potential properties.
During my testing I also found that Ken’s Counter Hit Fierce DP puts you on float state, but since only the first Fierce DP will have float properties, you can’t do it infinitely with infinite super bar.
A JP of 1 means, it will juggle for one hit IF they are in standard knockdown state and IF you haven’t already juggled them in this state for 1 hit.
Imagine a juggle counter in your head. Everytime you connect with a juggle hit, not against float state and not an initial knockdown, but a true juggle hit against a standard knockdown state opponent, add 1 point to your invisible juggle counter. To further juggle, you will need to use hits that have a JP value that is higher than the value on your juggle counter.
Yes, but how do these examples show that it HAS to be special moves? I think you’re just talking about the limitations of the characters moves and their recovery, if they can reach, etc… But as far as the juggle system is concerned, it doesn’t HAVE to be special moves I don’t think.
Right but am I incorrect in saying that his LP.SRK has a JP of 1? My point was that, his EX.FB has a JP of 2, which means one of the two hits will connect and the other whiffs (which is true). If it were a JP of 0, both hits of his EX.FB would connect.
Midair lk.tatsu puts him in the juggle state, no JP at this point. The lp.srk connects, I FADC, I ex fireball, only one hit connects. To prove this if I do the above but instead just Ex.FB, both hits connect (meaning it has a JP of 2, correct?).
That’s how I came to the conclusion that lp.srk = JP 1, ex.fb = JP 2, because both hits of ex.fb connect if there’s no JP on the stack (oh god, magic the gathering, I knew you’d serve me well one of these days). But only one hit connects after the lp.srk because 1 JP is already on the stack and ex.fb can’t go beyond 2 JP.
Like Cyborg cop said, you can’t hit your opponent with normals if you do Rufus’ far standing roundhouse twice.
It seems that if you use 2 normal moves that put your opponent on float state during a combo (while they are midair), the second normal will put your opponent on juggle state instead of float state.
So Nos99, when I hit a move like… Ken’s EX.SRK that can juggle infinitely albeit outside normal conditions? The first hit doesn’t connect, but if you fadc the second hit, you can do so infinitely. It doesn’t put them in float state, or at least the float state that lets you fully connect ultra.
My original assumption was incorrect. It sets them at JP 1 every time.
Your theory is sound, but for one thing. lk tatsu is a hard knockdown that causes FLOAT. Any move you do afterwards does NOT add to the juggle counter, because they are NOT in standard knockdown state, they are in FLOAT knockdown state. The lp.srk then just causes the initial standard knockdown, it does not truly juggle in this situation, and it does not add to the juggle counter.
After the Shoryu, your invisible juggle counter is still at 0. Each hit of ex.fb has a juggle potential of 1, so it juggle for ONE hit (juggle counter goes from 0 to 1), but since the second hit only has a JP of 1, and the counter is at 1, it whiffs…
In that situation Ken’s DP IS a float inducing attack. You can land a fucking jump kick afterward. If you hit them with normals (WHICH HAVE NO JUGGLE POTENTIAL) it HAS to be a FLOAT state.
Try reading it from start to finish dude, because this is ridiculous.
I openly welcome you to try to land a normal after FADC’ing ken’s EX.srk. And there’s absolutely no need to get snippy, I’m just trying to understand this and I happened to misread your initial posts. I get how Ken and Akuma’s FB’s are JP 1 now (had the CPU jumping, FB > FADC > EX.FB only one hit connected, so that makes sense now).
But Ken’s EX.SRK is certainly not a float state, otherwise you’d be able to connect his full ultra as you can off of his counter hit fp.srk. You’d also be able to connect another entire EX.srk, but you can’t, you can connect the latter 3 hits which have a higher JP value than the initial hit.
I used the phrase “set to 1JP” (which should have been a little more accurately put, they get put into a standard knockdown state) to explain that you put the opponent in an infinitely juggleable state (so long as you repeat ex.srk’s and continually reset them) that you can juggle off of further (an ex.fb for instance, will connect it’s 1jp after an ex.srk). I would certainly phrase that by saying it resets them into the standard knockdown state, as only things that would work during the standard knockdown state would work there.
For our purposes so far, “float state” and “counter reset” are the same thing. Can you show me otherwise? If someone is in float state, even moves with 0 JP will juggle, so it’s like the juggle count is at 0. I can’t think of any moves with the float property that also have non-zero JP. If there are any, it might make a difference whether you say counter reset or float state. But whatever, I guess I’ll just say float state from now on.
Easiest example of the float state restriction, use Gen’s cr. LK launcher. It puts them in float state right, because you can followup with anything. Now use it again…no more float state. That would be an easy infinite otherwise. Many more examples.
Doesn’t matter if it’s a special move or not. The first hit of Rufus’ j. HK sets up a float state (second hit does not, it merely has JP). Try this, though it’s a little tricky to set up: Catch them in the air with ONLY the first hit of j. HK (try to be low to the ground), then juggle with again only the first hit of j. HK (second should go over their head). Now when you land, you can juggle with cr. LP, meaning they are still in float state!
I don’t really consider that a bug, as in realistic gameplay you’d only be able to take advantage of the reset once (one bar for EX.srk, 2 bars for FADC, then the only things that combo at that point are the EX.fb 1hit, another ex.srk which can’t be FADC’ed to take advantage of the reset again, half-ultra, and a few other things) to little effect.
You don’t even need a counter or crumple start btw, just fadc off the second hit and go from there.
Aye, only his Fp.SRK has float property on counter-hit, which is odd. Outside of Ken is there any other character that gets this?
Hrm, the only way you could test for counter-reset would be to start a true juggle, and then cause float state… I can’t think of any moves that will do this?
There are a lot of discrepancies, especially with how moves cause float. These can usually be explain away by adding a property like “this only causes float on initial knockdown” or “this will only cause float against grounded opponents” and you can figure out these restrictions after a bit of quick testing. But I’ll be the first to agree that this isn’t a very elegant explanation and you have to accept the idea that they tweaked certain moves to stray from the standard. I’ll gladly accept a simpler system that works.
Regardless, I think you are using the idea of a juggle counter differently than I, so would you mind taking a crack at explaining some juggles and how the counter behaves? like…
Akuma vs cornered Opponent
Fierce Red Fireball (3-hits+knockdown), Juggle 1-hit Fierce Dragon Punch, FADC, Fierce Red Fireball (1-hit)
Gouken vs Anyone
Backthrow, MK-hurricane (1-hit), FADC, jump MP (1st hit only), sweep
These are some of those descrepancies that makes me think certain moves have conditions applied to them.
Firstly why is the EX fireball not listed as two parts, is this because only the second hit knocks down?
Also, EX DP, it looks like the first hit knocks down and the second hit is the first juggle. How then can I do EX DP, FADC, EX DP when the DP (second hit) only has a JP of 1?
If you’re serious about writing this program (it is by no means a trivial task), then you should investigate reverse engineering the character’s .EMZ files. Anotak and Gojira did great works reversing some of the values, but I don’t know how much progress was made.
Here’s a list of properties (probably not complete) per action (eg. a tatsu is one move, but it is comprised of a series of actions):
DamageHealth
DamageStun
SelfPause
HitPause
Impact
VoiceReaction
HitSound
ExtraHitSound
SuperMeterGain JuggleClass
HitStun
PopupDistance
PopupHeight
PushBack
Besides that, you also need to take remember that actions have different properties depending on the opponent’s state. These states are:
StandingHit
CrouchingHit
JumpingHit
StandingGuardHit
CrouchingGuarHit
AirGuardHit (theorized)
StandingCounterHit
CrouchingCounterHit
JumpingCounterHit
As for normal links, the easiest approach IMO is to capture it into a database and run a query on it. Just remember to include counter-hit and hitbox data
You’re right about Ryu’s fireball, I guess I should’ve listed it like this:
EX Fireball
1st hit - Hard, 2
2nd hit - Hard, 2
For EX DP, FADC, EX DP combo, this is what happens.
You strike the opopnent with the 1st hit of EX DP, this hit is a hard knockdown that puts the opponent into standard knockdown state. You then FADC this first hit… you haven’t juggled yet. You have simply put the opponent into knockdown state (juggling is when you hit them during this state). After your FADC, you do a 2nd EX DP. At this point the first hit of EX whiffs, because it has no JP, but the 2nd hit connects because it does have JP.
Alternately, try this combo EX DP (2-hits), FADC, EX DP.
The first hit of the first EX DP causes standard knockdown, the 2nd hit has a JP of 1, and the juggle count is currently at 0, so that connects too (and adds 1 JP to the juggle counter). You then FADC into another EX DP… however, since your juggle count is already at 1, and EX DP has no JP hits greater than 1, the 2nd EX DP completely whiffs.
Thank you for this, though the program will make a lot of assumptions. Primarily being that the opponent is not blocking, is standing, and is in the corner. It’ll really be more of a way to calculate combo damage and potential without having to sit in the training room and execute it to find the information out.
It’ll be very simplistic in nature, just comparing frame counts and hit stuns to see if the hits connect, check whether the move is cancellable etc. My only possible issue at this point would be distance, though I could just make the assumption that after 2 close jabs close normals no longer function or after 1 close medium or fierce move close normals no longer function. I can’t think of any combos off the top of my head where you’re limited by the distance between you and your opponent and not limited truly by the recovery of the move if you’re in the corner.
I’ll gladly accept a simpler system that works.