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my entire argument rests on the idea that unblockables are going to be removed. I dont know if they will, but I was just following that train of thought.

She does have some good mixups and stuff, she wouldnt be CRAP or anything, but she would take a big hit. I see unblockables as** one **of the fundamental aspects of high level Cammy play, and in my opinion, it makes her ability to open people up very very strong for many reasons, and her ability to almost assure damage is one of the primary reasons she really deserves that top spot. Sure she has a lot of other strengths too (good normals, nice damage), nobody denies that. But I see unblockables as the reason you crouch tech against her, because getting thrown is really bad. youll get opened up for big damage, and if she catches you with a counter hit, shes gonna get big damage anyway. So shes really good. If you take out unblockables, its not just her unblockables that suffer, and just down backing against her (and trying to predict throws as opposed to O/S) becomes less scary. I feel like taking out unblockables is a big deal for Cammy.

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i really want to see some slight changes to a few characters rose/oni/dudley/evil ryu/makoto mostly

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And you missed mine. Even if the palm was nerfed to have recovery, it would still be the single factor that completely wrecked certain characters wakeups. It would still be a usable tool that still far outshines anything gouken has in his version.

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I think for Akuma, this is actually more significant than you think. Currently I’m compiling a list of tournaments to see how well Akuma the character has placed over the past year, and so far my suspicions are being confirmed. Tokido and Infiltration have excellent placings of course, and then…close to nothing at the local/national/international level besides Eita winning Shadowloo Showdown. This is not just about winning either: top 8 and top 16 placements are nearly nonexistent as well. The information so far is running counter to typical examples of characters/races being overpowered, which is a gradual increase of top tournament results coinciding with an increase in delegate players placing high in tournaments. I noticed this trend especially after the 1.4.3 patch in SC2, which is when zerg really started to dominate at all levels of competition. So if Akuma is in need of nerfs, it seems like his overbearing tools are not having an impact except at the highest level (which is pretty odd).

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palm recovery is four frames which IIRC is the same amount of recovery as a normal jumping attack

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I didn’t miss it. It is horribly wrong.

You nerf the recovery and the OS abilities and safe jump abilities are gone. The cross up palm is gone. The ability to use it as mobility is gone.

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There are a ton of unintended consequences. It is because they changed how pushboxes work. That is why you are able to get so much closer to the opponent in SFxT. That is why there are so many ‘block normal opponent lands behind you, block crossup opponent lands in front of you’ mixups or ‘fake corner crossups’ or ‘fake corner crossups that if you delay the button press by 1F more it becomes an actual crossup’

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Looking at Akuma’s tournament showings in itself is pointless. Research how top players of other characters have placed/won in tournaments and compare. Not saying he is in need of nerfs as long as Capcom buffs the less powerful characters appropriately.

On another note, we can all say we want no nerfs. However that almost never happens, what do you think Capcom is going to do?

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I just said that. If we only looked at tournament results, Akuma is by far the best character in the game. However, the information contradicts the claims that he is overpowered instead of merely top-tier; there’s a pattern that all such characters/races follow and Akuma doesn’t follow it. And while the number of Cammy and Fei Long representatives with notable placings has predictably increased post-AE 2012, the number of Akumas doing so seems to have shrunken (the Seth and Adon pools largely remain the same).

Since Capcom is freely collecting responses from the entire community, the changes might be more severe than AE -> AE 2012. For the top 5, I expect one move (the one people complain about most) to be nerfed. I don’t see Cammy EX Cannon Spike nor Fei Long’s rekka escaping some type of nerf. It’s harder to discern for Akuma since people are complaining about everything concerning him.

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Right because a nerf of 1f added to recovery will destroy akuma like the 2f to f throw.

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Funny I said when they nerfed the throw it was more going to be a pain than an actual nerf and you can check my posting record with that, but nice job using a logical fallacy anyways. Hell I actually was complaining about the throw nerf not because it would stop Akuma, but rather it was a pointless nerf that proved Capcom didn’t understand what they were doing with it. All it did was force us to completely relearn everything.

It’s easy to dismiss it when you don’t understand the mechanics (Which you don’t).

It makes 4 frame safe jumps impossible to do out of DF. It makes OSing to beat reversals 6 frames or slower impossible. It makes the cross up palm slower developing and way easier to defend against. 1 frame makes the flip a whole lot less effective on wake up and it also can make the flip punishable on landing.

So yes 1 frame would actually change a ton of shit.

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“It makes 4 frame safe jumps impossible to do out of DF. It makes OSing to beat reversals 6 frames or slower impossible.”

Frankly that is a bit stupid. A move that leads back into itself via a hard knockdown, that also sets up 4F safe jumps that it is possible to OS anything 6F or slower? That is basically saying “if you don’t have a 3F DP, good luck.”

I agree that nerfing demon flip palm would have wide consequences towards the entire character. It doesn’t mean that demon flip palm isn’t such a singularly good move.

Let me point out what DF Palm does:

  1. It causes a hard knockdown that allows for an additional setup into the demon flip palm/throw/dive kick vortex.
  2. It breaks armor (it may be Akuma’s only natural armor breaker but he has plenty of multi hit options. Still it should stay an armor breaker no question.)
  3. You can’t jump out of it because it still causes a hard knockdown on airborne opponents.
  4. It allows free OSes to beat reversals or escape attempts that would be blocked by the 4F safe jump anyway but now have an OS icing on the cake.
  5. It is part of a combination move that requires different timing and options to beat each variation.
  6. It allows left right mixups with demon flip cross up.
  7. It is safe to whiff
  8. It is airborne for all but 4F meaning that any punish is fairly limited compared to what a grounded punish would be, a lot of characters have trouble breaking even 130 damage on an anti air punish without meter, some even with meter.
  9. It provides more mobility to a character who is already one of the most mobile characters in the entire game by a large amount. (Fast forward dash recovery, 2nd fastest walk speed, dive kick, ability to alter jump arc with tatsu/alter landing time with fireball, far HK moves a huge distance while being safe against most of the cast, ect ect.)

I agree with your points but can you give me any significant weakness to DF Palm? If I lower my hurtbox to avoid it you can punish that before I recover, if I backdash you can punish that, if I block it you are at advantage, if I avoid it somehow you are safe, the hurtbox just uses Akuma’s base model and the hitbox is fairly decent. I can’t focus it. I can’t throw it. If it trades Akuma gets a hard knockdown still. If the only weakness is that it only has 2F active frames then you are reaching because Fei’s rekkas are only 2F active, Guy’s bushin flip - throw only has 1F active, Cody’s Zonk is only 3F active.

I think you are underselling how good DF is, especially DF Palm which can shut down a lot of characters even before taking into consideration the OSes or getting in range for the move ect. It is an incredibly strong tool. Own up to it and move on.

Even if weaker characters were given better wake up tools and ways to stay on their feet easier, it doesn’t change the fact that DF itself is an incredible tool that has a ton of uses AND is safe in almost every situation other than whiffing the slide. I dunno how much or if at all it should be changed, but don’t try and claim it isn’t amazing

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And that makes it on the level of flip parry how? Where most of its tactics are pretty much left dp baiting, and not even applicable on wakeup. It will still have its uses on characters with terrible wakeup. Maybe you’re just used to great tools.

You can keep bitching all you want. It would still be an applicable tool on some matchups. Nowhere near the level of shit you try to put it on in hopes of saving Akuma from the nerf hammer coming towards him.

But you can keep pretending that it’s just me.

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Flip parry is significantly worse, that doesn’t mean that flip palm HAS to be nerfed. Frankly, I think that it should be nerfed but only if Akuma gets a meaningful buff to one or two of his forward jump normals active frames and possibly his air fireball meter gain from 5 to 10. And even then the nerf would have to be done carefully for flip palm.

As I said, the move has little to no real weakness and covers a lot. However the move is ALSO the lynchpin of Akuma’s gameplan. demon flip palm / throw and air hadoken are basically incredibly good moves that help turn his only slightly above average and occasionally below average other set of moves into a powerhouse. What LoyalSol says about his moves complimenting each other is completely accurate. The only point I truly disagree on is the idea of DF and Air Fireball not being extremely good moves on their own right even without the rest of Akuma’s great set of moves.

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FYI 5 frame or faster reversals who can FADC have the option to burn 2 bars to get out because you can’t OS a 5 frame reversal. Which is why the dive kick is more preferred for characters like Cammy or Sagat. Most of the 4 frame reversal characters also have neutral invincibility as well which means they can completely cause my jump in to whiff if I time it for a perfect safe jump. That’s one of the main reasons Akuma can’t vortex Blanka effectively.

The move without any other options would be meh. If you took out DF grab the palm becomes no better than a normal jump in besides the armor breaking. Which at that point why not just do a normal jump in where you can actually combo if you get a hit? If I have to hit someone 4 times with the palm to equal 1 jump in why use it?

It’s a jump in. Everything you listed is what is known as jump in properties. Can’t jump away? No kidding I can’t jump away from a safe jump either. It’s safe on block? No kidding, so is a safe jump. Allows left right? No kidding so do jump ins. I can OS off of it? No kidding I can OS off a jump in as well.

The palm is essentially just a jump. When we ask the question what does it do that normal jumps can’t do better it really comes down the main advantage is that it armor breaks. Everything else you can do with the palm by itself (If we look at the move in a vacuum) you can achieve with other jumps ins and with better results.

It does 100 some damage+knockdown in a situation where you could do 400 off any other jump in. It’s actually one of the downsides of using the palm is that you can’t combo off of it. Sure you get a knockdown, but now I have to mix you up again to get more damage off of it instead of just taking a large chunk of guaranteed damage like any other jump in.

Not really accurate comparisons since only one out of those 3 moves are actually moves where you have to press the button to make it go active and the other 2 are moves that move you forward on the ground. 2 active frames means you have to press the palm button exactly right to get it to connect with the opponent. Too early it whiffs, too late it whiffs. And if you play Akuma you will go through this frustration often because when the palm whiffs whatever you OSed comes out. So if you OSed DP or Ultra you sail to the sky ready to get punished. It always messes me up every time I go to a PS3 major for at least a round or two.

So yes the 2 frames is actually a big deal and it is an annoying pain in the butt sometimes.

No, no it isn’t. It’s tiny as hell to the point where it whiffs on some crouching characters from several spacings. It whiffs horribly on Juri. Sometimes I like to use normal jump ins so I don’t have to deal with the palm hit box.

And frankly I know someone is going to come in with the damn hitbox image and say “OH NO IT IS LARGE!” when I don’t actually look at those things I look at how the thing performs in an actual match. In actual application the palm is susceptible to whiffing on crouching opponents for whatever reason.

I haven’t undersold jack. I’ve said Akuma’s strength has never been the strength of any one tool. He is strong because his tools work together. If you name any one option Akuma has I can point you to an option in the game that is nearly as good or better. Akuma is strong because where one tools fails Akuma can use another tool to cover that weak spot.

I get tired of people acting like anytime you say there is situation where Tool X doesn’t work that you are underselling. I’m telling you exactly what I have figured out over 4 years of playing the character. The DF is good, but come on. The move doesn’t run itself and there are plenty of situations using it will get you killed.

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I…I love you

177

It’s a jumpin? Ok well it’s the only jump in that causes a hard knockdown and chip damage and builds meter on whiff then.

If it hits airborne then it should be a techable knockdown and it shouldn’t cause chip. Bushin flip - elbow drop doesn’t cause chip.

You know how many characters have a 5F or faster FADCable reversal in the game? 14. 1/3rd of the cast has an option that you are still safe against but can’t OS to beat. And that number drops further down once you take out the characters that have to use a bar just for the reversal.

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Akuma is not overpowered, he is just one of the best chaarcters in this game (and there’s nothing wrong with this, he shouldn’t be nerfed just because he is good).
Regarding your investigation, one thing you should consider - Akuma is much harder to learn than Cammy and Fei long, and I think this might be a reason why not many people picked him. Learning Cammy is much easier and the payoff much faster.

I don’t think either akuma or Fei Long needs nerfs (nerfing Fei’s rekka would be a terrible idea). Cammy Ex Cs might need some… tone down, but I think even this is not necesary.

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@LoyalSol

You’re trying to bring some sense into someone who says the only criteria for how hard it is to whiff punish stuff is the recovery frames, just a waste of time if you ask me.

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It is the most important part. See there is a little thing called the English language. By definition of “whiff” and “punish” the move must already be in recovery frames when you decide to attack. If you hit a button during the start up or during the active frames of a move that is a counter poke.