What makes VF harder than any other fighter?
Obviously we’re talking about learning to be competitive.
8wayrun =/= sidestep.
8wayrun in Soul Calibur is a positioning tool and that’s it. Its used to position yourself and is not the same as using sidestep as a defensive option to beat certain attacks. 8wayrun as a sidestep is inherently terrible, as it is designed by Project Soul themselves from the beginning to be hit by any move when used as such. If you try to sidestep with 8wayrun, you are going to get pounded, even by linear moves. Soul calibur sidestep options are step(8 or 2 direction) or quickstep in SCV, which both suffer problems
oh, and your comments about oki in Tekken, well, VF has all of that. But that’s not even the point. the point was ‘more options = more scenarios/strategies to keep in mind’
I don’t know if it’s harder than any other fighter in the long run, but it is harder to get into and start applying the ‘basics’ into your game.
thats not necessarily true
you can quick step into a eight way run
and it also depends on which soul calibur you are talking about if its 1 you have a point
but 2, 3,4, and 5 you would be off
you arent taking into account which moves have natural added step on their own
for instance
with alpha and setsuka i can step and punish moves with 33b or 22 a
but that leads into specifics
and also vfs oki is not close to tekkens oki lol thats a stretched thought at best
you dont get relaunches and resets of a vf oki
nor do you get punished by mids for standing straight up you dont get guaranteed back throws for reading side turned to standing oki
too many varying properties, different games by their nature highlight different things
this question in and of itself is hard to answer
while i think vf is difficult like all smaller market games i.e guilty gear, its difficultly is a little exaggerated. its harder to get into from a beginner standpoint because aesthetically until vf5 there wasnt alot of incentive but thats another conversation for another day.
that doesn’t mean much in difference to what i was saying. sidestep=defensive technique to avoid certain attacks (usually linear attacks). if you quickstep or even regular step into a 8 way run, its still the step/quick step that actually HAS sidestep properties to avoid attacks. if you don’t see what I’m saying, check 8wayrun.com
this doesn’t help your case in saying that ‘Soul calibur has the best sidestep options out of any of the 3d fighters.’ Other 3d games (including VF) have that too. But this is veering off topic, so even if you were right, it doesn’t address the OP.
uh, yeah actually, you do with a correct read.
as I mentioned in my original post, you can get launched into a full combo if you tech incorrectly and your opponent reads it. Not to mention your wakeup reversal kicks can be CRUSHED on clash by a move >20 DMG (which can also lead into a combo, depending on character). if you play VF5FS, this is fundamental knowledge. In vanilla, you could OM sidestep or jump a wakeup kick into a back throw or launch. In FS, you might be able to do it still(noone in the west at least has found out for sure), but AM2’s decision to jack up tracking makes it harder.
I don’t think VF is hard. That’s a public misconception. (I personally think Marvel is much harder to learn, if you don’t play Virgil,Wolvie,derp etc) But it’s definitely the most complex out of every fighting game hands down
I really hate when people break post lmfao
every 3d game can punish wakeup kicks
even soul calibur does this
im talking about backrolls and standing up from side tech rolls into full on launches also what certain attacks hit grounded based on head or feet facing foward
there is no way that vfs oki is on the same level as tekken
and im saying you can punish moves with 22 and 88 moves
specific instances but nonetheless they work
and if anything it adds onto the varying angles that you can attack from
and the op question asks the question of whether vf is the deepest game
it assumes
but it cant make a definitive case because all fighting games by their nature
emphasize different things
vf emphasizes things that other games dont
that doesnt make it more complex
just different
I think Oki is hard in both. VF doesn’t get hard until you come across someone you can hit and low throw tech rolls, forcing you to slowly get up. Slowly getting up leaves you open to down/pounce attacks and ground throws. OM setups in this game are too dope. Else Blaze is an Oki monster, who can pin you down for the match, if played right.
SF4 you need to learn tight links in order to special cancel, focus attack dash cancels to combo into most Ultras, a couple of required OSes, safe jumps and all the characters different wakeup timings so you safe jumps work (there’s like 5-6 different timings), 39 matchups, and the typical “frame data and character specific combos”.
VF is way fucking easier than SF4 imo
I guess it’s to each his own, because i found VF much harder to pick up than tekken for 3D fighters; and I generally pick up / transition to other 2D games easily enough. There is something about the back and forth that eludes me.
I don’t know which one is the more complex but oki is the hardest to master in VF (one of the only hard and the hardest thing to master in vf i think overall) because it requires a good read and also a godly timing (anybody who plays both of those 3d games won’t deny this, just fact).
About the depth of VF, don’t forget the wall and the edge which are a dramatic/ flashi part of the oki game ^^
PS : Oki in VF doesn’t work only for damage but also for advantage (it’s really really important in this game.
3rd Strike.
Don’t feel bad. It eludes EVERYONE that plays other fighters. Just remember the general rules of exchanges are 1-2 hits, and the game takes place in the 1-9 frame set so keeping the opponent pinned down is harder, thus the emphasis on really paying attention to your opponenet playstyle.
BUFFER YOUR RESPONSES. For instance when you block 2P, which should be blocked High, you buffer the Elbow to hit them, don’t wait for the animation go back. The buffer system is another part misunderstood about the game.
This right here is one of things that separates VF from most other games: the input leniency. I think this is one of the reasons why the online play works so well.
I don’t understand why high execution has to factor into a fighting game’s depth. I like SF4, but I hate that a lot of the combos are links. Fighting games are supposed to be easy to play.
Virtua Fighter is my favorite fighter, next to Super Turbo. There’s a lot going on within the game, but doesn’t take an incredible amount of joystick gymnastics to play well.
The unique thing for me that this game brings to the table is the fight rhythm (momentum swings). Pacing is very quick, where both players are actively trying to outguess each other to gain the upper hand. Safety in your attacks is quite rare, as the defender has many options on how to react. Thus there’s bigger focus on being able to read your opponent and punishing accordingly. While some situations are guaranteed (throw on +12 advantage), the damage is not, as said throw can still be broken/teched. The Rock/Paper/Scissors analogy is prominent in this game especially so.
The cast itself can be controlled easily enough, where each character being able to exploit certain faucets of gameplay better than others. Jeffry, for example, doesn’t have any reversals or attacks with deflection/parry properties, and is slow movement wise. He is however able to exploit low & ground throws, and can be frightening when he has you against the wall due to his heavy hands and ring out opportunities. El Blaze, although quite fast and varied with his arsenal, is susceptible to juggles due to his small size.
Technique isn’t too bad, once you understand the options available. Mids, lows, launchers, circular attacks, and throws make up the foundation of choices in offense, where guard, evasion & throw breaking make up the defense. Building your skills upon that allows you to dive into the advanced strategies in the game, and will allow you to explore the depth of the game. In contrast, UFC Undisputed is one title I could never appreciate playing as the controls make these same principles a chore rather than a joy to apply.
Honestly, I’m not a big fan of VF (or any 3d fighter - I’m a fan of 2d’s more).
But I completely agree with the sentiment that high execution should not be a major factor in fighting games.
The better player, or “more skilled” player should be determined by knowledge, knowing how and when to time their attacks, strategy, positioning, some sort of “game plan” when approaching the opponent depending on characters/your style, mind games (should be a very important one, possibly the most, so I’m stressing it), etc.
Some execution is healthy for a game, so that players have something to learn, but most modern games have been following a trend of high execution and super long combos, which just turns the game in to an** execution battle, rather than a fight**. And what is inevitable from those game mechanics? Randomness. Also “derpy” characters are a result of this type of game design too, when an easy execution character can do just as much damage as a high execution character. It completely screws the “risk vs reward” system in fighting games. And there’s not even an easy solution, because if they make the high execution characters do far more damage, they will become the “top tier characters” and the fights will be even more based on execution, AKA even more random.
It’s just bad game design. You could have an incredible neutral game, better reads, and generally outplay your opponent, but then lose the fight because of a dropped combo… Just from SoCal Regionals alone there was many examples of this. It’s a shame when players are clearly more skilled, but end up being beat because of a dropped combo and game design that rewards pro players for playing low execution characters.
Some games (such as P4A) have gone a long way to show that you could be easier on the execution but still have a highly competitive game, and when it comes to execution SFxT seems to have been a step in the right direction from SF4 imo. I just hope fighting game developers continue to smarten up and get off this road which is going to lead nowhere but holding back the Fighting Game genre from growing larger.
I’ve played virtua fighter for a while and I’m saying that it’s a simple game but on person to person level aka psychological level, it’s compared to 3s. The level of depth between the two players really depend on the players, but the mindgames and options you have to use (and counter options) make it so “deep”.
That being said I’ve had my best times with virtua fighter not worrying thinking too deep into it when I play. If you like the game for what it is you don’t need the depth to have a good time.
I have been playing VF since VF 1 and 2 in the arcade. VF5 FS is very deep but people don’t quite understand why unless they play others who understand the game mechanics. It’s easy to just mash P or 2P all day, but quite different when you get into the movement options and actual combos.
Why is it deep? Well it’s partially because of movement being one of the top skills in the game. When you move it doesn’t feel like other 3D games because you can dash into and out of 3D dimensions rather than just slowly walk and still get hit. It’s not like SC or Tekken where when you sidewalk it takes you a few seconds to register being in that dimension or position to the opponent. Movement is so slick and quick that if you use it properly you can do some amazing things.
It’s also deep because their are so many other variables of movement, ducking is varied, attacks vary so much while moving. Sure, other games have that but most games don’t allow such free roam over these tactics. What I mean by this is, you are not grounded by your own movement like other games where if you or the opponent move a certain way you are pretty much forced to react a certain way. The game also forces you to switch it up all the time. Many things are easily punishable and it really makes you think of new ways to either avoid or keep the pressure on.
Why is execution such the talk? It’s because your execution is really rewarded in this game unlike many other games where your execution is sometimes put on the back burner over priority of moves. You may opt to do easier execution moves in other games due to priority, but not in VF.
In general execution is way different in VF. It forces you to think about bare bones fighting game mechanics(spacing, timing, movement) over special priorities of special moves like say Tekken where certain special moves gives more priority. In VF priority is a lot more, if not completely based on your timing and your movement. Just look at it this way, when you are put in blockstun in VF you still have tons of options to get away as opposed to SC, Tekken, or 2D fighters. Grabs don’t hold all the priority either.
VF is a very fair game honestly and that’s also part of the depth because you have to think out of the box to be good at it. Every time I play the game against good players I am in a new situation I have never been in before because it forces you to really evolve your gameplay rather than rinse and repeat the same moves, combos all day. If you do constantly rinse and repeat your going to be eaten up in a hurry and no that does not always apply to every fighter. So yea it is something special.
Hey guys,
The comparisons between DOA and VF,
Is it about DOA 5, or previous iterations ?
I made a thread in the “Fighting Game Discussion” sub forum
that was in the same vein as this, though it was closed by d3