I’d have to say Spiral/Cable/Doom is 10x better than Spiral/Strider/Doom, although that wasn’t the original question and still a far cry from viable against the top teams.
Trust me, I wanted Spiral/Doom to work for the longest time. I REALLY did and I tried everything I could to make it work. Aside from a pseudo-trap by doing call Doom with CoS xx speed up/powerup to make spiral float, reload swords, Cos (which uses a meter for every cycle and can be escaped depending on position by waiting for the swords to fall off the screen), there really is no solid Spiral/Doom trap. And like Strider, if Spiral isn’t trapping , she’s getting rushed down, and you need some way to buy yourself time to reload or you’ll get rushed down again. That’s why some form of AAA (even if it’s sent-g assist) is pretty critical for her.
On top of that, for Doom to do max chip damage, you have to be point blank next to your opponent for Doom to do his work. That’s counter to where Spiral is most effective (i.e., as far away as possible).
If you get a chance to come from MA (I’m assuming you’re in MA and go to Goodtimes?), do try to make a trip down to CF and I’ll try to show you what I mean. It’s easier to show than explain in text.
Im on the other side of the state from Good Times, but from what I hear I’m not missing much lately. I hope to get to CF soon, got a friend in Brooklyn so its only a matter of time.
As an aside, I swear I was able to do CoS multiple times in one jump without cancelling to Speed/Power-up so I’ll have to relook at that.
You can do multiple CoS, but without cancelling into speed/power-up, Spiral doesn’t ‘float-up’ a bit so that the next CoS is significantly lower since Spiral is falling from a sj. , causing the 2nd CoS to run into the ground or off the screen way too early.
Speed and power-up cause her to float a bit longer so that Spiral stays relatively center to both CoS, which is ‘cheap’ in a sense, but in the end, it’s still only 12 swords of block damage (if they don’t run off the screen first).
You have 2 low stamina characters with no AAA - and no strong DHC’s ( like in team Duc - using drones and HP, sword super XX HVB) you don’t even have Doom’s APA to HSF option like in team clock.
You lose angles with rocks in place of drones.
You say in other threads that some duos/ teams can work - you need to test them against good players/teams. Maybe you should replace my 2 cents with "this team has some OK stuff but I’ll ignore any shortcomings or match ups"
Put them to the test.
Mixah - you used to shit all over scrubs in gamefaqs when they posted they’re shit teams - you’d think you’d be able to fathom why spiral would need anti air.
EDIT - That youtube match was awful - magneto launcher assist?
yo Augmint, I asked bc I wanted to know why. You gave a brief response, and I gave a brief response. The internet is broken bc you can’t pick up on inflections, thats my bad though, I meant no disrespect.
I’m just genuinely curious why people say certain squads can’t work-- i hear “it won’t work versus good players” way too much and I’m ALWAYS gonna ere on the side of the niche/random/goofy/weird teams. Why? Because when you sift through the garbage team configurations long enough, you’re going to find things that work. You don’t need a million setups or combos, you just need a handful that work in the situations that marvel demands.
Top/god-tier is god tier for 2 reasons:
1.) They’ve got the most tricks/combos/useful setups/mobility. I’m not gonna argue against that, its the truth.
2.) But God-tier is also god-tier because of the time invested in them. You spend enough time with ANY team and you’re gonna get better with them. Look at VDO or Preppy, by all accounts these teams shouldn’t perform like they do, but they can bc these guys put in the time.
But that’s just my “OK stuff but I’ll ignore any shortcomings or match ups.”
sorry, couldn’t resist. <3 tho.
edit: the fact that Magneto’s cr.HP assist is actually useful is probably a topic for another time.:tup: Think storm/Mag and extended block strings.
Wait… I didn’t say it’s unbeatable. I still think it’s a great combination though. It’s no better than people saying that MScommando is a great combination either. but whatever.
and the teams that i used to shit on were when people used to say shit like “SABRETOOTH . DHALSIM . SENTINEL!”
typically, if it involves top tiers, they’re usually good teams.
as far as spiral and strider on the same team, sentinel or blackheart would work better… but i still think that spiral strider doom is viable.
Cos good players can generally see almost immediately what it has - how you avoid it, and capitalise on weaknesses.
Plus weird teams always have a flaw against one of the gods - wether it be storm run away/ call drones XX Hail all day
or cable or rushdown.
Match ups > more important than set ups (most of which you won’t have opportunities to land)
That you ere on the side of niche teams is not an issue - more so that it sounds like you haven’t even used them (and lost heavily) against core teams. It sounds like aspiration over objectivity.
Most people looking at a team like spiral/strider/Doom would be able to list 4 or 5 standard teams that would steamroll it.
Last - there’s the simple fact people would say spiral is viable without anti air.
The original poster is gonna use the team - maybe have limited/minor sucess if he plays vs other novices then later realise how bad it is and how he should have invested in learning spiral and sent.
Mixah - I didn’t say you thought it was unbeatable. I refered to spiral having no anti air - that you think its a great combination (your words) is telling.
i did say “great team”. maybe i exaggerated a bit. but doom can still stop a lot. doom gives enough time to teleport out of the way and protect doom at the same time.
I think Augmint brings up a very good point: Anybody reading these posts that are not familiar with Spiral may leave with the impression that Spiral/Doom can be just as effective as Spiral/Sent. If holes can be pin-pointed out, then at least other readers can skip hours and hours of testing to find out the same weaknesses.
I wish spiral was decent without anti-air, but I can’t even have mediocre success with something like Spiral/Sent/BH. I just get rushed down into oblivion (opponent gets OCV often if they have Mag or Storm), whereas Spiral/Sent/CC against the same exact competition renders an OCV for Spiral. It’s quite a game-breaker and it’s often that drastic of a difference.
Everything you guys have said makes sense, and I do need to play against some more high-skilled comp. I just like playing as if there’s some things left to be discovered-- bc there most definitely are, and ‘good’ players continue to prove this.
And honestly, I’m not concerned with somebody who reads a couple posts online getting any impressions about any team. I’m just pointed out an approach for the team with plausible options, and you’re rightly pointing out its weaknesses. But if people are going to base decisions off what they read here in a few seconds and don’t wanna do the legwork then thats their loss.
And Aug, you’re right it most definitely is aspiration over objectivity, and I expect a lot of my understanding of the game to shift as I get more and more into the competitive scene.
god tiers are god tiers because of mobility, aside from cable. 3 of the 4 god tier fighters can fly and have rediculous mobility. doom and iron man also have mobility and thats why they’re top tier.
as you go lower and lower on the tier list, fighters can only super jump and thats pretty much it. chun li’s the only person i think is listed lower than she should be because she can triple jump i think, and she can also air dash.
:tup:That’s true only to an extent. Dhalsim for example is a lot more ‘mobile’ than any of the gods, but he isn’t at the top. Morrigan has far more air-dash angles than anyone in the game, but she’s not at the top. Theres a lot more to it, but you’re on the right track .
i made a short video of some of the open-ended trapping options sp/d has. Yes, there’s holes, but note how many options you have. A multi-layered, looser trap has more openings for escape, but the mix-up factor grows exponentially.
I understand your attempt to show there’s no holes, but training mode has 3 huge gaps which you’re not going to fill unless you play good competition:
pushblock
assist call to take projectile hits and to hit you out of up-close attacks
j. and sj. out
At the very least, if you want to eliminate #3, put your game settings so that Mag is in SJ mode. If he sticks to the ground, then you are on the path to a solid trap.
Points 1 and 2 have to be human tested.
That’s why you need to base things off of playing against competition if you really want to determine validity of a trap (and even then, some people will sit there like Mag is doing in your video).
Maybe someday they’ll create MvC2 for online play… who knows.
I know what you mean about pushblock, next time i have a homey up for games I’ll run a Sp/Doom squad and grab that on tape.
I did say that there ARE holes, but more importantly that your options continue even if they jump out.
Some of your Doom pin options if they do get out are: If they SJ out, you sj COS, quickdrop Doom and work from there. Or doom + teleport. Or recall swords and sit tight. I’m saying that, no its not a solid trap, but rather its a loose trap that you can freestyle from. I know you’ve seen Duc playing Spiral-- there’s points where he stops a trap cycle dead just to trigger a reaction that he can work off of.
There’s some redundant points to the vid, namely when i’m just doing dashing tick hit strings, but what I was really after was showing how her tri-jump/sj LP quickdrop LP effectively prolongs the blockstun and pinning power of Doom assist. Also how much stun numbers you get to work off of when you’re able to work speed up FP overheads into your doom pins.
Unfortunately I did the vid more or less live, so the pin cycles aren’t as tight as they could be, but I feel like this particular duo needs to focus on intelligent decisions based off of the opponents reactions to your last attack.
Maybe ‘pinning’ is a better term for the more open-ended Doom traps? I didn’t necessarily mean to imply that ‘trap’ means ‘cannot possibly escape’. Anyway, I hope you can appreciate my take on the team now that I’ve showed some legit investigation. Not sayin’ Sp/Doom’s ‘better’ than Sp/Sent, but what does that even mean-- its the player and not the team. :nunchuck:
Spiral needs solid traps or she gets pounced upon where her horrible frame data and slow dash/jump mobility get her killed very quickly. For instance, a CoS in response to a sj. can just lead to Storm zipping away and stalling until your CoS disappears. Mag and Sent also have similar answers like Storm’s.
That’s the easiest way to explain it without showing you in person, as option trees with multiple options/reactions get huge and lengthy in text.
recall swords. storm dodging swords evasively doesn’t hurt spiral. when storm is ahead, its a dif story, but thats a fact all of marvel has to deal with.
you can point out solutions to what i put down all day. but seriously, i’ll call it quits lest theoryville open for business. :wgrin:
we’ll have a friendly grudge match someday and you can show me what;s good :]
i hope you guys realize i’m not trying to be difficult, I genuinely enjoy this kind of discussion, and thats what theses boards are here for.