I looked for a few days now, but I couldn’t find it.
There is a correlation between learning long division and learning higher maths, e.g. Algebra.
There were two six year studies, one in the UK and one in the US (about 15 years later), where students took tests at age ten and age sixteen.
It showed those students who test well at long division at age 10 are much more likely to test well in higher maths at age 16.
It has to do with the process of how division is a series of steps which break the problem down into smaller, more manageable pieces, while at the same time keeping track of the arithmetic in one’s memory.
It all starts young.
We have to do our best to teach our kids to read, write, and do arithmetic as early as possible.
I was fortunate to have parents who didn’t have to work two jobs or nights, so I was able to learn a lot from them. I was also fortunate to have a parent who is big into technology and especially computers, which directly aided in my learning, as well as delinquency at times.
I’ve complained enough for one thread so here’s a constructive post. If anyone here didn’t learn algebra the first time and wants to try again, or has a kid taking or about to take it, I highly recommend Algebra by Gelfand and Shen. It’s not a dry “cookbook” and there are some very interesting problems in it. They have I think 3 other good middle/high school books too.
Last time I checked, Spanish in most programs is not required to graduate. However, for some majors there is a foreign language requirement, but even then you get to pick what you take.
Math on the other hand is required through virtually every grade and even into college.
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Economics is about supply and demand. The reason why certain jobs pay more is because a smaller portion of the population has the education to perform a job. As more people have a certain ability it diminishes the relative value of it in terms of compensation.
It’s why a college degree is becoming less valuable than it once was. As time goes by a greater number of people have degrees. If you want to make more money off your math ability, you want a smaller portion of the population to share that ability.
But honestly…I don’t know what this argument has to do with anything I posted.
But most people don’t go into those careers. Basic math is useful for virtually all careers, but the more advanced math becomes the less likely it is going to be useful in any given job.
I never said we should remove math from the curriculum. I said it was overemphasized. If a student wants to go into a field that has an emphasis on math (especially a science), then yes, they should be taking math. But most people can function just fine with the basic functions of math.
No offense, but this tells me how little you know about communication if you feel it is just about telling people what you want. Self expression is only a very small portion of communication.
The reason I even used this example is because communication is literally inescapable. You’re constantly communicating to others and yourself. Even if you say nothing, you’re still communicating. There is not a single business that can exist without communication.
Advanced math, if we define it as anything beyond addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division, is a requirement for all students to graduate middle/junior high school, and high school. It’s not an elective.
If people want to take higher level math they should have that choice, but I feel as things stand now it’s a waste of time and money to force it upon so many students.
Wow. Think for just a moment how much efficiency loss and conflict results in the world through communication failures. Do you not think that could potentially be impacted if our education system perhaps emphasized things like active listening and empathy a bit more?
Communication isn’t just about expressing yourself, but getting the most out of what others express as well. Think about how much more information might get stuck in a kids head if they were learning skills to make them better listeners. Think about the political decisions the average voter might make if they knew how to listen and process information better.
And not to sound dramatic, but communication failures can lead to all manner of violence. How many lives might be saved if people knew how to work out their differences through effective communication? I’m not saying it’ll lead to world peace, but I certainly think it could help improve how people collectively get along as a society and advance politically as a democratic republic.
Math not being applicable in the real world is a misconception. Actually, there are more math-heavy career fields now than ever. Anything science, engineering, business, or computer related is going to be math-heavy, and jobs involving those four fields comprise nearly all of the top 10 post-college career fields.
A foreign language is a requirement for most liberal arts colleges. I just used Spanish as a reference point.
Like you mentioned earlier: “If you don’t use it, you lose it.” And even then, in college, depending on the major, if your major isn’t math oriented, than you only take 2-3 math classes. Usually college algebra (hint hint. It’s important.) and maybe a stat or calc class. (Not so much important unless you want to gain a research role) What you should really complain about is the inclusion of trig and geometry. It’s more of the case of schools not catering to individual abilities and using a one-size-fits-all method of teaching. On another point, the US education system needs an overhaul (starting with the repeal of some gov’t requirements…)
S(y) = D(x) I think that’s an appropriate equation for economics. At least part of it. Math related, ENTIRELY.
Just wanted to correct that.
Not so much diminishes the value as much as leveling out the allocated resources for specific functions of society. If more people became scientists, that wouldn’t decrease the value of scientists. There’s a surplus in the amount of degree holders and that explains the reason for the decline in compensation more than the degree becoming “less valuable.” Albeit, a degree in ________ (don’t want to offend anyone here) is pretty worthless.
I’d consider algebra basic math (and I’d consider it just as useful in all careers as basic math). Sometimes, it’s useful to be able to predict outcomes with a function… Especially for budgeting purposes. It’s not just for on-the-job activities. Basic math plus basic algebra is useful for all career types and personal lives. Can be damn useful for trying to find out how many of (x) you’ll need to satisfy (y). Like figuring how many gallons of gas you’d need to make a 400 miles trip within a budget. On the other point, The OP is dealing with algebra. Advanced math is saved for those who need it.
Being able to do basic algebra is something that’s taken for granted and it’s not even difficult (to learn or to teach)… I can reason w/ not knowing how to divide functions or understanding limits, but being able to acknowledge what a function is and use some of the basic elements of algebra is pretty useful.
Not as much as you think it would. It’d probably improve gender relations a lot. But on the matter, there are many outside forces that affect communication that don’t allow for steps to be taken to make sure effective communication has occurred during every encounter.
Again, these are just things that (I think) should be naturally learned or taught by society. If one has to be taught to derive empathy then I may assume Antisocial personality traits. But that’s a job for psychologists… I can see where you are coming from and I am not taking away from its importance. I just think those things are something that society should teach more so than professors.
That’s not something that can really be taught… That’s a personal thing… That’s a difference in values, needs, opinions, etc. And it’s rare that people collectively agree in those terms.
Yes, it’s not the math thats necessary it’s the discipline and mental tools you gain from taking the time to learn and process problems. Studies show that students who succeed better in math have better mental adaptation and problem solving. Google “math student comparison” or something like that and you’ll see. I was an an adhd ( high def add ) ( I don’t mean a stoned deaf kid btw ) dyslexic kid in school but Working my math from algebra to pre calculus helped developed my discipline and mental adaptation.
Here’s an economics problem. If I have spent $200,$30,$40,$70, $250, $400, $300, $250, and $350 on repair costs over the course of several months how much so I put aside each month for repairs?
I learned algebra when I was 5 years old but then I moved to America and since America is mathematically handicapped I had to take it in junior high school. I got 100 on my regents. I went to specialized high school which offered calculus and easily got 5 on AP while sleeping in class (I slept because my professor made a lot of mistakes and explained things really bad and I knew the material). I was hoping to take Calculus in junior high school but schools don’t offer higher math so students that cut class to play basketball and do drugs could still keep up with people that actually try to learn. I also had programming in high school and already needed math for it when we learned about time and space complexity and for computer science when I moved onto college the artificial intelligence and algorithms classes actually had more math than the math major programs.
In my opinion math isn’t needed. Just get into business/management and make millions a year off people who actually know what they’re doing.
Yes effective communication is necessary, we all agree, but I find that above statement erroneous.
Math helps people process information better.
One can tell if the person speaking is spouting bullshit or actually attempting to cover something significant based on the numbers or figures presented.
For instance, an example from around 1955 US Congressional report:
"If fossil fuel usage remains constant, we’ll have over 500 years of available oil."
The problem here is, educated people are going to understand:
Our population is growing, so whether we like it or not, there will be more people using energy.
Oil usage has been growing every year, consistently, as noted in the report.
The above number is bullshit because it doesn’t take into account growth rate (the exponential function and subsequent doubling time)
One of the biggest failings of graphical communication is the misuse of relative geometric sizes. Properly proportioned geometric shapes can quickly explain the differences between two or more things. If people were able to read plots correctly, they could see right through the bullshit people put on TV, and then we could move on. But until then, unlabeled axes and dis-proportionate shapes will be used to bias people who are uneducated in math.
There are many ways math can be used to explain things efficiently and we’re still exploring. Computers and excellent software have helped tremendously, but the wide spread misuse and misunderstanding of math has contributed to the collective bias against truth.
Or instead, the people who know what they are doing have good ideas, get patents, and make all the money, and the people in business and management are just a dime a dozen hired to help with HR and salary management, as needed.
With enough math and experience in spreadsheets by the end of high school, a person who wants to start a restaurant can get going without a university degree in anything. They just need the right experience, working under someone else for a while. The fundamental math required for organizing things and breaking problems down into smaller steps can be taught before high school even starts, making this person a potentially excellent employee. Then high school can be used for math which helps with longer term reasoning and planning, which helps a business stay profitable long term.
How is this discussion even taking place? How are there even two sides to the do we need math debate?
How is this disuccion happening on a damn competitive fighting game site of all places, does no one see the irony in this nonsense?
America doesn’t live in a bubble anymore the whole world is connected. Giving up on math because is just being a scrub on a far more serious level. You know SRK, those people who gave up on combos because they were to hard and banned throws for being cheap, the people you beat mercilessly and have no respect for, the ones whose opinions on any technical subject you rightfully dismiss, because the knowledge they believe they have, is a joke to anyone who actually knows what they are talking about? If you want to get rid of algebra, guess what?
THATS YOU NOW!!!
Important and highly influential people come into to a room with a certain amount of tacos available (assuming that EVERYBODY LOVES TACOS). Less tacos for each individual. Doesn’t mean that any person is less important than another; there are just less tacos to go around.
don’t bother, she has done it before and she is doing it again. THis just goes to show how clueless she actually is about the core of mathematics, and the tools you develop when you actually learn the material.
i got a D in algebra 2 sophomore year in high school. took summer school at a community college with a professor that knows how to teach and i got an A. went back and shoved my transcript down my high schools teacher throat. best feeling ever. “see told ya so!”
Algebra not necessary for daily work! Its been substituted by machines, and handheld calculators.
When you buy food in a food store there is a machine that calculate how much money the customer has to pay.
For everyday and normal jobs maths is not necessary. For job as math teachers, computer programmers, java, math professor, electronics, oil industry and so on math is important. But not necessary for normal daily life work.
I’ve actually expressed my opinion to a number of teachers, professors, developmental psychologists and school psychologists and they agreed with me.
Virtually all of the most vital ‘lessons’ you learn from math could be taught in a more practical manner through logic, philosophy, and science. Math should rarely if ever be presented as a stand alone subject, but paired with something that applies it to the real world in a tangible and rewarding way.
It’s the same reason you don’t just teach kids how to write letters and then put a particular bunch of these letters together in certain patterns and combinations to make words, you let them read. You let them read to gain knowledge to sate curiosity or read stories to spark their imagination in an entertaining manner. So learning new words becomes something practical.
In a similar manner, you shouldn’t be teaching kids to memorize a bunch of rules for how to do an equation if the answer doesn’t really mean anything. Sure you can memorize these rules, just as you can memorize that a particular combination of letters becomes a word. But pure memorization without applicability does not tend to rest in the working memory of the human brain for very long. In other words, if you don’t use it you lose it. Well then why in the fuck are we teaching kids to do something they don’t know how to use!?
Math teachers should avoid situations like:
Teacher: “The answer is 2x + y/z - 3”.
Student: "What does that even mean?"
Teacher: "Well that’s as simplified as you can get the problem."
Student: "How would I use this outside of class?"
Teacher: "Well…if you wanted to go into engineering or science, you might use this."
Student: “Could you name a particular science or engineering function this might serve?”
Now I can’t speak for everyone, but the vast majority of math teachers are completely clueless to what most of the math they teach actually does and are not able to answer the above question. Math becomes a game of these abstract symbols called numbers, and there’s rules on what you can do. You memorize a bunch of these rules and how they apply to the numbers and you get an answer. But if the answer means nothing to the student, they’re probably not going to be interested in the topic because it has no relevance to their life. You might as well be teaching them how to play sudoku.
I’ll say this again: Math itself is overemphasized. Math needs to be paired with some other subject that makes it relevant to the lives of the student. If this doesn’t occur, then the student will have a very difficult time using it outside of the class setting. And if that happens, gained knowledge will be diminished extremely quickly as virtually all the research on learning curves has shown. So to generalize math it needs those other subjects.
This is one of the reasons I actually really like Statistics and Research Design. I’m good enough at it to tutor my peers and I’ve gotten nothing but A’s in it, even in grad school. At the end of a stat problem you prove something through probability. That has merit. That has utility. It’s easy to see how that function could improve lives and alter protocol. When you learn the different types of tests and designs, you learn that each has advantages and disadvantages depending on what you’re trying to prove and the nature of your data. It makes sifting through all that data and doing a problem that takes literally hours actually rewarding. And I personally feel it is that which is largely missing from the education system.
