3342

What do you guys think about this? -

If you get thrown out of a V-Reversal, you gain no V gauge.

Imo this would be a good change.

3343

My wish list:

Decrease input delay (duh). I’m actually fairly okay with “normalized” input delay, but 8 frames is way, way too much. Something like 5 would be much better. Further, there needs to be a normalization across equipment.

Remove jabs as effective anti-airs. I’m generally really happy with how risky jump-ins are, but jab as the end-all AA is so boner deflating.

Make v-reversals punishable on block (as a rule with maybe a handful of exceptions). I am always impressed when someone reads the v-reversal and baits it. I’m always under impressed at the reward they get (-2 in most cases).

Buff Rashid :stuck_out_tongue:

Generally speaking though, I’m pretty damn happy with the state of SFV.

3344

Why does everyone wanna remove jab anti air? how is a character like alex supposed to anti air properly? Cr.Hp don’t always work well…

3345

Why should a character have 100% anti-air coverage? I think with proper spacing, jumps should be viable. As it stands right now, they mostly aren’t except on read or wake-up. The problem with jab is it works too well and too often… enough that it crowds out other AA options. If it were removed, people would adapt, and that includes Alex players.

I think some of the issue is where you philosophically stand on jump-ins. If you don’t think they should ever be viable with a few notable exceptions, then you’ll want every character to have a perfect AA. If you believe that given proper spacing and timing, jump-ins should be viable… well then you’ll probably want AA jab gone. I just don’t think there should be an AA that comes out in 3/4 frames without requiring some kind of motion (which obviously adds frames). There’s a reason that characters with DPs are still choosing to jab after all.

3346

Jab anti-airs seem like a band-aid capcom threw in to address a few issues they were too rushed or lazy to fix, and imo stems from their focus on lazy/easy-mode rushdown. Generally speaking if your opponent whifs a poke/normal in footsie range your safest option is to punish without jumping in on them, else you risk getting AAed or they block. However because of the input lag, stubbier normals, lack of combo variations, ect. in SFV jump-in and cross up combos are a lot more viable for most of the cast, especially since this game is built around momentum. Generally speaking pressing jab is a panic reaction from new players, like jumping back and then jumping forward to attack, and my guess is that capcom made this a viable option to allow new players to fight back instead of doing what your generally supposed to do like block, dp/AA normal, or not throw out dumb shit. Now normally this wouldn’t be such an issue because eating jab on your jump in is better than a dp, except it changes who has momentum which depending on the chars can mean losing that round, for trying to punish your opponents mistake. The problem is a good player is going to exploit this, and this is what is key to being a good player, why risk doing something that is harder to pull of, is easier to punish, and can potentially lead to a worse situation then simply pressing jab. Instead of asking for capcom to leave in a broken system, maybe Alex players should ask why his jab is better than a special whose sole purpose is to AA, though to be honest he does need it.

3347

You literally don’t know how to play streetfighter with thinking like this.

Here’s the thing:

Jumping is a choice, it’s not something you HAVE to do. You also have a choice as to what type of jump you do and from what range you do it at.

Most characters in sf5 have a way to change their jump arc.

Jumping is viable in EVERY streetfighter game ever.

Jumping is EASY and strong. Therefor ANTI AIRS should be easy and strong.

I jump in with chun against people all day in this game. Jumping is piss poor easy in this game. there’s nothing wrong with AA jabs. Jump when your opponent is committed to a ground attack or is overly focused on the ground game. Other than that, stay on the ground… If you don’t jump you can’t be AA’d

3348

Come on, man… don’t be that guy.

Literally everything is a “choice”. That’s hardly an argument. Fuck, by your own logic, jabs are a choice and easy as shit to do, so…

Further, you and I have always had decent report, so I’m going to be polite, but you need to reread my post. I’m not opposed to AAs being good. I’d actually prefer other AAs to be more viable (via reduced input latency), but as it stands right now, jabs are so good that they literally crowd out virtually every other option. Dive kick? Jab. Cross-up? Jab. Neutral jump? Jab. Regular jump? Jab. IALL? Jab. Why do anything else in this game unless it is a guarantee, because jab sets you up, gives you the momentum, and in many cases gives you a mix-up via cross-up. In a game about pushing the right button, there is no real such choice in the AA game. Plus it is, like I said, anti-hype. Buff DPs or AA normals for all I care… but drop lame anti-air jab.

Plus, you mistake my dislike of jab as a “dude jumps so he must hate AA” which is demonstrably false. Even if it wasn’t, it is irrelevant to the conversation. This isn’t a “nerf things that hurt me” talk.

3349

Whats so wrong with it being so good? 30-40 dmg and if they fuck up the AA they get stomped for 200++ dmg. Jabs are in a good place, as it is a mostly defensive tool that does not lead into redic dmg consistently ala sf4.

Also why would you want to remove options in the first place?

3350

Anti air jab lost to early jump in attack in 3s. Usually the mixup was jab beat empty jump or late jump in attacks but did no damage and lost to early jump ins which usually lead to fat combos.

Is this similar in 5?

3351

I’ve said this before, but I’d gladly give up the “4-frame, insane hitbox s.lk anti air > 50/50” that Chun has for her old, 10 frame flip kick anti air that you could get an air combo off of.

Really just any anti airs that leave opponents juggled i’d gladly welcome (yay ibuki).

3352

No it’s different here. People like spec don’t know it, but the ACTUAL reason why AA jabs work so well in this game isn’t because of crazy goodness of the jabs themselves, but because the way this game was designed, jumpin attacks have HUGE hurtboxes that extend out before the actual hitboxes.

In other words, jump attacks have very little priority on the whole in streetfighter 5.

@qspec

It’s spencer right?

Look, I came up with world warrior. That game with the SUPER SLOW jumpins and zangiefs and dhalsims anti airs were both st.lp’s.

Know what we did? Didn’t fucking jump at those twats that’s for sure (unless they were knocked down) we beat them on the ground with footsies, or, we learned what jump attacks worked against those anti airs and wat what spacing and timing. Like blanka jhk could hit sims AA if sim mistimed it or mispaced it at all.

I don’t really understand your jab logic though. TBH.

To me I only deserve a jumpin if I can jump when my opponent is so mindfucked that they can’t react fast enough, or when they’ve left themselves open by like doing a fireball or something.

I ALWAYS test my opponents AA ability and go from there. If my opponent can AA my first 3 jumps in a round I will generally not jump anymore AT ALL, unless it’s a neutral jump or something.

Because those jumps weren’t designed JUST to get in. They were also designed to give me info on my opponent. My jump patterns are very specific. Jumping at different times means different things to me. Like there’s the old do a pokestring then crossup jump pattern. That’s good, and noobish. But if my opponent is weak to it I will abuse it. But if they aren’t then… I won’t.

And if my opponent AA’s me at THIS time, I know they are also generally open to me doing THIS (usually just walking forward and gobbling up space, but there are a lot more options depending on the opponent and character) and bla bla bla.

TLDR:

Leaning on Jumps in streetfighter is for baddies, don’t be a baddy. And if you aren’t a baddy you won’t care about AA jab cause you won’t be using jumpins as a crutch for bad footsies.

3353

Yeah, it’s Spencer. And yes, I understand that jump-ins have an extended hurtbox. If memory serves me, all attacks (maybe just most?) have an extended hurt box.

The thing is though you’re talking about strategy and relative effectiveness of AA vs jump-ins. That’s beside the point. I don’t care if jumping is 100% unviable (which isn’t the case). I just think jab being quite literally the go to for everything jump-in related is a tad silly. Not only is it silly, it looks silly. It is the anti-hype. Watching a good Ryu have an incredible fireball game and still land every shoryu against a jump in? That’s hype. Watching a good Ryu hav an incredible fireball game only to jab every jump-in? Laaaaaaame.

And for what it’s worth, I too came up from World Warrior. I’m 33 which is no spring chicken in the FGC.

@IglooBob

No it isn’t the same. I wasn’t exaggerating in my last post. Jab literally covers almost every air option. It stuffs dive kicks, neutral jumps, cross-ups, standard jump-ins, Sim’s teleport mix-ups, Nash’s teleport mix-ups, basically anything in which your feet are off the ground, jab wins.

Serious talk for those that know the mechanics better than I do, do air attacks obey the priority system? H > M > L? Or is it something like in KI where a jump-in counts for one level down so a j.h = 2m? Or does it ignore the priority system all together?

3354

Command grabs have a different tech input instead of being untechable

3355

Air attacks don’t. And jab can lose to Divekicks, I’ve done it. But if you want characters to not rely in jab anti airs then they should have better other options. Right now they really don’t.

3356

@Muttonman

All jabs can lose to all jump-ins, it is a matter of timing. But jab is still easily the most reliable “on reaction” counter to divekicks.

Also, if characters right now don’t have access to good AA, give them better options to AA. Like I’ve been saying, I don’t particularly care if jumping is viable or not so much as I just despite the least cool moves in the game being a one-button stop for all your AA’ing needs.

A page back, @“Half Breed” really said it well (Relevant parts quoted here for your convenience! Emphasis is mine.):

3357

I still don’t see what your point is though… You say take out jab AA’s, but replace them with something that is just as good… But make it a medium or a special or a heavy so it isn’t as fast I presume? But then it wouldn’t be “just as good” with regards to reaction time… So to me this is weird wording/false representation of what you want.

I mean jab as an AA isn’t even viable across the cast. It’s primarily necalli, ryu,Alex and maybe a couple other that have jab AA’s that are good.

It’s also weird that you ask for this when other AA’s in other games were near as fast, yet did way more damage. Gief had/has AA lariat. Other characrers have fast damaging crouching hard punches. Other characrers have great angled standing medium kicks

The fact that it’s a jab AA for 30 damage versus a 140 damage srk should actually be something you LIKE.

If you came up with WW like me, I don’t understand how you want multiple AA’s to cover multiple jumps/divekicks/crossups.

In those games the same AA’s worked no matter the button pushed. Baddies didn’t get a free mixup just because they wanted to, that they didn’t work for.

I really don’t understand this want of strong mixups that one hasn’t worked for via fundamental play. It boggles my mind actually.

3358

Mixups are easier to understand.

3359

Ohhhhhhh…

Shit that just kinda dawned on me as obvious as it is. I just take it for granted that people understand fundamentals as well as mixups… To me they are like peanut butter and jelly, cereal and milk, ryu and ken… Etc

None as good on their own as when mixed with the other.

3360

See if you want to talk viability, I’d argue that baddies still get free mix-ups without earning them. Jab > vskill or jab > dash isn’t hard. Hell, it isn’t even kind of hard.

Shoryu anti-air actually meant something. It was a skill you had to develop, and one of the reasons better players were so impressive is because they were always able to buffer in a DP motion for when they actually needed it. Watching Momochi hit those super deep mp.shoryus into Ultra? That was fucking hype. Watching Chun flick boogers at a jump-in? Fucking stupid.

Also, I actually think it encourages the jump-ins. You can eat 3 jabs for the same damage as a well timed DP… so that’s 3 jump-in attempts that will lead to ungodly damage if they land… jump away. That alone should be reason enough to adjust them, since much of this game (up into higher levels) is a game of “the floor is lava”.

Plus, it isn’t like jump-ins were all that hard to punish in SFIV, but the back and forth was a lot more interesting. Sure, you had to work at it… but it was one of the easier core skills to develop. You don’t even have to work out AA jab… you just have to be told or see that it is viable and you can immediately plug it into your gameplan. Literally the only thing interesting about it is that you have to discover that it works as an AA. But once you realize that it is the best of all possible AA… yawn.

Also, yeah… I want AAs to hit harder. My dream scenario is an AA that requires a tiny bit of skill, doesn’t always lead into a mix-up, and hits hard.

3361

Yes, finally, a good point that is arguable and logical:

I would see your point and raise you this:

What’s free about getting in range for a jab? When I play people I’m clearly better than, there is nothing “free” about that when they jump I AA, when they dash I space them out or hit them preemptively. When I play people that are clearly better than me, there is nothing free about me getting in against them… If I ever do get in.

I like this point you made because it strikes to the heart of the matter. It is literally fundamentals 101 to understand the point you are making.

There is NOTHING FREE ABOUT MAKING CONTACT WITH A JAB.

Now, that has one caveat:

Jumps that change angles/divekicks/viper burning kicks/fuerte splash shit/dictator or chun instant press-legs etc etc etc

Destroy this fundamental to a certain extent. These kinds of moves are what actually kill fundamental streetfighter at its core BECAUSE THEY MAKE THE JAB MORE FREE.

BUT!

In sf4 this wasn’t balanced at all. In sf5 however, one of the things I REALLY FEEL THEY GOT RIGHT, was the huge hurtboxes on all jump attacks and easy AA’s to make up for divekick style moves, of which in this game, there are a ton:

cammy divekick (low priority hitbox on regular divekick, also minus on block, high priority hitbox on ex dive, +0 on block, very high priority hitbox on v trigger dive, plus on block iirc… The ex and v trigger dives are “balanced” by needing meter, the regular dive is balanced by an easy to AA hurtbox and being negative on block and all dives have a height restriction)

Chun has iall (balanced by huge hurtbox, any jab will wipe the move out)

Rashid (balanced by being terrible on block, but have good priority and damage on hit)

Alex stomp (bad on block, requires charge, hard to space. Ex version is hard to control and requires meter)

Ken ex hurricane (requires meter, has a very specific range criteria to not be terrible on block)

Bison head press and stomps etc (requires charge, best versions require meter and I think but am not sure that the hurtbox is huge)

Bla bla bla… You get it. They all have some crippling weakness that keeps them from being spammed. Cammy is the closest one to being able to spam cause she should get around 5 really good divekicks a round (2-3 ex dives and 2 v trigger dives) as well as her regular divekick is a semi decent move to mixup with regular jumpins and ex dives. At any one point in time cammy has a neutral mixup of regular jumpin/regular dive/ex dive so she can be one of the harder characters to neutral against if the other person wants to abuse this mixup and your character doesn’t have an invincible DP reversal.

But going back to the original point about baddies getting free mixups off of jabs… Like I just explained, lists ode the kinds of moves I just listed… They don’t get that jab for free. And in sf5 they especially don’t because those kinds of attacks have all actually been balanced to a certain degree.

The only people getting free jabs on me are people using characters in matchups where I don’t know how to AA them appropriately:

This is a few matchups but the biggest ones for me are dictator and rashid.

Dictator is tough because he can change the angle on his headpress at will, rashid because he kinda just flies around like a loon and crosses me up and makes me try to bait his dumb running attacks, but then jumps instead bla bla bla… He’s tough for me to neutral against, personally, but I digress.

Regularly jabs are far from free, especially if if one is bad and double especially if that bad person is playing against a good person.