Agree and disagree. Xbl is better. Way better than gfwl and psn. I have all three and won’t even bother the latter two.
No. A poke is an action. It really is as black and white as I’m describing. There’s a wrong and a right way to describe what a poke is and your description isn’t one of them. I’ll use jogging to clear this up for you. I can go jogging with my legs (poking w/ st.mk). My legs are good for jogging(st.mk is a good poke). You saying something is or isn’t a poke is like this: My legs aren’t a jog (st.mk is not a poke).
I didn’t claim that was your point. Your definition of a good poke is limited because like I said there are characters that have their best pokes punishable on hit (rufus st.fp punishable on hit is some cases). If you use a good poke at the wrong time you can be whiff punished by another good poke (not f+lk). Trading scenarios are pretty irrelevant most of the time. If you are looking for ryu to throw out a cr.mk and he whiffs it then you can whiff punish that with f+fp, but f+lk won’t do anything.
What I’m saying that if f+lk is his best poke why is it used sparingly if at all in most high level Oni matches. It doesn’t make sense to say st.mp is chunli’s best poke and if no one ever uses it. If you want to point out why he’s not good in this game there is a lot simpler explanation. He’s got a shit sweep in a game that revolves around getting a utk and he can’t fadc his dp on block.
Again, having a good hit box doesn’t equal best poke in the move set. It doesn’t really matter that much unless you’re talking air to air or situational anti airs for jump ins. Good pokes should have good range and do good damage. f+lk fails both of those categories.
You never play rufus the same way you play anyone else because of his damage output and dive kick pressure. Ryu can’t use cr.mk (his best poke) against rufus for that same reason. Why should Oni be able to get away with playing that match up the same way he plays against bison / anyone else?
I really think you’re just being elitists with the online play at this point. I have 11,000+ BP with Oni on PC and 8,000+ BP with Oni on Xbox. I’ve spent considerably less time on Xbox… it’s really not that much harder. It’s definitely better quality over all, but not so much that you “wouldn’t touch the other stuff ever” :\
You already contradict your own definition of “a poke” several times in your own posts. You say both that a move “is a poke” and is “used for poking” in the same post. You are being completely contradictory and arguing semantic nonsense that you don’t even follow yourself. I’m not interested in arguing it with you anymore. Poke can be both a verb and a noun and it depends on how it is used. Check your own usage of the word (or anyone else’s) in both forms for verification. End.
Regarding usage in high level play, I see Chris Hu use it, I see Combofiend use it. They aren’t spamming it, but then again you shouldn’t be… it’s his best poke, but it’s not one that you can spam all day-- it’s not Bison st. MK or HK… but that doesn’t mean it’s not Oni’s best poke (a character that is not overly “pokey”). I don’t see why you think it is so unacceptable that it is his best poke. Nothing else that he has is as consistent for that purpose. There are moves that poke well AND get him in (st. MP, cr. MP, cr. MK, st. LK), but in terms of pure poking none of them are as good as F+LK.
Rufus dive kicking has nothing to do with how much you do or do not F+MK him… I won WF’s against him extremely solidly because he could not handle my F+MK pressure. He couldn’t hand it the first 2 games of GFs either-- I would say that it looked like a sure victory for me. He clutched out game 3 though, and at that point made an adjustment to jab me out of nearly every F+MK. At that point, I had no ability to maintain momentum and it was almost impossible to win.
I also completely disagree with his main issues being no FADC on Shoryuken and a poor sweep. FADC on Shoryuken would be very nice, but he doesn’t need it to be good. While I agree that he should have it, I wouldn’t list it as his biggest issue. His sweep being poor is completely consequential… he does not need a sweep when he can combo into UTK so easily off of DPM+K. What he needs is for Slashes to be negative, but un punishable on block. Plenty of characters get safe left/right mixups, Oni’s is both unsafe on block AND easily beaten before the move actually hits. If he could reliably left/right mix-up without getting easily, fully punished, it would help him immensely.
I think I understand where you are getting confused so I’ll give it one more try.
If I say a st.lp is a good poke that’s like saying my legs are good for running or my arms are good for punching. Verb is an action where noun is a person place or thing. Poke is an action, where Diago, St. Louis, and Keyboard are a person place or thing. I think where you are hung up is that you think the poking is a thing. It’s not a thing like a carrot is a thing it’s an action. You’re hung up on thinking a verb can be a thing at the same time so therefore it can be a noun as well. A bicycle can be a thing and an action but they are referring to different ideas although related by the same word. A poke doesn’t mean anything outside of an action because it’s action like running is. So saying something like f+mk isn’t a poke is like saying fists aren’t a punch. It’s very black and white. You can have a move that is a good poke just like you can have legs that are really good for jumping. You can say f+mk isn’t a carrot but you can’t say f+mk isn’t a poke. You can say it’s not a good poke but that indicates that it’s still a poke just not a good one.
If you can explain how a poke is usable as a noun I will bow down to your godlike abilities.
Since It’s my argument I’ll post vids of high level onis not using his “only good poke”.
Spoiler
[media=youtube]Y1MJKEpSsHM[/media] ShinoChan
[media=youtube]s0JKSeOloHw[/media] ShinoChan
[media=youtube]jz7GMzSnkos[/media] Chris Hu
[media=youtube]mpMvzd9j38[/media] Wildcat
[media=youtube]MwENfUrih0Q[/media] Eita
[media=youtube]P3rOOuSN4xA[/media] Eita
[media=youtube]rDbZzHifE_M[/media] Youhei--
Now on with the other stuff cause you can clearly see that either f+lk is useless or these guys should be watching your gfwl replays for tips on how to use oni effectively.
The fact that he can’t fadc his dp on block is huge. Think of all the situations where he could use that. Can you imagine if he could throw a safe dp into the mixup after a lk.demon slash? Also the sweep being uncomboable and having tons of recovery hurts his footsie game tremendously. If you can’t see that then it’s a waste of my time trying to explain it. Comboing into demon smash or w/e it’s called isn’t easy actually. It only combos off of cancelled b+mp, cr.fp, or st.fp (maybe st.mp unsure) where dp or fireball can combo off of jab cancel. Akuma’s sweep is 6 frames start up. Oni’s is 9 frames according to the wiki anyways but we know it won’t combo off of counterhit cr.mp (should net 9 frames of hitstun).
In regards to your using f+mk against Rufus. I never said that was why you lost. I simply stated that you can’t play against rufus the same way you would against bison. If you do you will lose because fighting rufus is unique.
Thank you, Raiden, for making me read through tons of semantic bullshit without an actual point. “a poke” is a perfectly usable and acceptable way to express things. It is, in fact, widely used and understood throughout these forums. It’s part of fighting game jargon.
Also, MMM is not, as best I can tell, confused but rather aggravated by your level of inane nitpicking. Everyone, including their mothers (and probably cousins as well) understands “[a move] is a good poke” to mean “[a move] has characteristics (primarily safety and reach) that make it suitable for poking at the opponent”. To insist that they use a long, really formal definition is absurd when the shorthand is clear and understandable to everyone. Furthermore, we’re talking about a game, where moves are defined in painful detail. Due to that standardization it makes absolute sense to refer to moves as things. So stop the semantic nonsense, please.
Whether fw.lk is a good poke or not is another matter entirely.
EDIT: Should we also stop using “a sweep” and refer to “a normal move that can knock the opponent down” (where move is again, shock and horror, a noun).
Oi fuck I wrote out a good message and it got erased by the damn web browser.
Anyways the point was that a poke can’t be true or false property of a move. If you think so then you’re wrong too. If you think that a move can either be a poke or not a poke then you probably don’t know what someone’s best poke is. Whoever the fuck you are thanks for coming in reading two or three posts and taking what I said out of context.
this is what I’m arguing against. When you are talking about a poke it means the act of poking if not give an example of how it’s a noun.
No sweep and poke are different because sweep and cr.roundhouse are interchangeable where poke and cr.mk are not. Any button can poke. Do you see the difference?
The entire reason I wanted to drive that point home was because mmm was convinced f+lk is Oni’s best poke. If you think f+mk is or is not a poke then it’s a minus when trying to argue what Oni’s best poke is.
I already feel like a turbo nerd for going this far so regardless of future trolls I won’t try and explain fundamentals anymore.
You guys see that video with unused Oni moves? Man he could have been so much better. A dive kick, teleport, and downward air dash all removed. As well as Akuma normals, but I don’t think that’s a big deal to most of you guys. Really, what could have been.
I wouldn’t get to depressed after seeing that video. The developers simply used Akuma as a template, so one could assume that some moves (the normals, st. HK, and dive kick) were never meant to be in Oni’s arsenal. I can definitely see the downward air-dash being among the moves that could have made the cut. Maybe that would have made him too deceptive or mix-up-ish?
you got characters in this game that are walking 50/50s, characters that after a hard knockdown you are stuck playing according to their game and you have to play to their pace. i dont think giving him that air dash would have made him broken…giving him a teleport and that standing hk would have made him indefinitely better…that dive kick people would just bitch about…what would have made him top tier would be a command grab.
Just read this thread, and I have much respect for MetalMusicMan for putting up with people who don’t realize the value of a good normal when someone force feeds the info to them. And of course they are an XBL kiddie zzz. Keep giving your console bad rep by claiming every other one sucks, why did you buy the game on PC and PS3 if you “would never touch them”?
Anyways the main reason I wanted to post is to say I didn’t realize you did Let’s play’s MMM and they are highly entertaining : )
Man if he could airdash twice…oh good lord . Oni can set-up left to right mix-ups using hk slash and fadc electric gouhadouken…i think it only works in the corner…i recently saw shinochan do it those sets vs daigos ryu… i think we might be able to create legit unblockables…
Ah, but did you notice how many times he whiffed it verses landed it? He landed it once. He whiffed it a bunch of time because he was trying to getting the cammy player in the air or to counter poke at a range he can punish / react to. His f+fp and f+mk were far superior pokes in that match.
im sure it wont work midscreen because the opponent spins full screen away.
It probably works if the opp spins into the corner. I managed to juggle into ultra 2 for over 400 damage