I’m not talking about nerfing or buffing anything. I’m talking about making everyone able to actually play the game on the same level. Perhaps that could lead to buffing or nerfing certain characters, but the overlying problem comes in the games development. Lack of defensive options, CC neutral, etc.
I don’t think homogenization is bad if the game is designed well. I think that’s what made the old Street Fighter games so praised. You could be a zoner. You could rushdown. You could play fundamentally, waiting in neutral and punishing whiffs and jump-ins. You could play with stupid gimmicks. Everyone was different in other SF games but they were able to apply their playstyles to the game with relatively the same amount of success. I’m not calling for everyone to play the same in SFV, I want SFV to be a game where everyone can play how they are designed to be played and not be burdened by a shallow game design. If you think that is every fighting game ever made, then I don’t know what to tell you.
2 Likes
Volt
3868
Yeah. Glares at Netcode
Glad we’re on the same page… I think?
FlyingVe
3869
Kind of?
I guess I’m saying that when you have character gets with different tools, by definition some will be better than others. Ryu has not done well in that regard.
Pertho
3870
Ryu’s best tools in Season 1 was invincible DPs and throw loop. If he didn’t do donkey levels of damage, he would’ve been ass because his fireballs were ass.
2 Likes
ZioSerpe
3871
fuck no.
just Capcom games tend to pull this crap
look at the landscape
UNIST, Tekken, Xrd, shit even BB to an extent and now apparently samsho.
They all have some characters in a bad spot, but nothing is close to SFV having consistently 3 to 4 character that are just better than every other option in the game. And maybe they had this in the past but fixed the issue with patches.
When has Akuma not being strong? Rashid? Ibuki? SFV as of right now has a solid bunch of characters that are solid, but are still invalidated by those 3-4 characters that are just so much better than them.
2 Likes
Eskills
3872
Jump Lk was god, so was his st. Lp st. Mp and st. Lk. They shit on his buttons.
1 Like
Pertho
3873
Grand scheme of things I still think he was on the weaker side of things compared to a lot of the people at the top.
1 Like
FlyingVe
3875
That’s just because they nerfed the top tiers harder. Hell people used to rail against developer including Capcom just doing a “revolving” top tier.
My point was that game balance is not why SFV is lacking. This game could be perfectly balanced and there would still be lots of issues (VT, CC, bad normals/hitboxes/movement, very limited offensive and defensive options, etc…)
Also, BB has gone for years with several characters being stupid good or bad. People often joked about Hazama being unerfable as an example.
Again SFV suffers from a lot of homogenization. It’s not that Karin is “so much” better than other characters it’s that the thing that tons of characters are doing is pretty similar things.
You can see the same issue in DBFZ to a greater degree. Mid tier characters in that game are very strong… but what’s the point when the top tier do the same things better.
However, to some extent, doing the “same things better” is a large part of the definition of a top tier character.
5 Likes
Volt
3876
Now that is what happens in any FG, and it’s fine tbh.
Unless you got ridiculously bad chars with lopsided MUs across the board, it’s ok.
FlyingVe
3877
I’m gonna be mean for a second.
I think you gotta be more clear on what you want changed. Your post keeps contradicting itself every other sentence and at this point I’m not really sure what you are trying to say outside of “SFV is bad”.
1 Like
FlyingVe
3879
Hey… that was mean…
In all seriousness. Tone is tough with text, which is why I tend to just state it outright. That way it doesn’t come off as personal or vindictive (I hope). Sometimes the only way to make a the point you want is be being direct.
2 Likes
ZioSerpe
3880
That is just untrue, UNIEL got minor tweaks, as far as I am told Tekken 7 top tier “nerfs” were smart as hell and apparently it’s more of a change of style with those characters and incentives to explore more of their moveset.
BB has a lot of very strong characters and no character has really been dominant.
As per DBFZ I intentionally left any tag game out because they are always like this, since synergy is a big part of the game the number of viable characters tend to be extremely limited.
It’s the main reason I can’t get invested in them, you can’t really play your favorites if they don’t have synergy. I think the perfect example would be Psylocke in Mvc2.
FlyingVe
3881
I can’t speak for some of the other games, but there were certain characters in BB that stayed top tier for many years, and likewise many who stayed low tier forever. Hazama being my favorite example because it was actually a joke in the community at the time. While my BB knowledge drops of hard after CSEX, up until that point some characters were always really good. Meaning I burned out after Tager was finially decent (it only took the better part of a decade).
If they got nerfed down after that… well, they were still on top for a long time.
I was just using DBFZ as an example of homogenization as most game plans are extremely similiar.
Volt
3882
Both are correct to some extent.
Yes, there were some recurring faces in top tier. Hazama being the most obvious example.
On the other hand, with the exception of BBCP Kokonoe’s reign of terror, BB never had a top tier just leaps and bounds ahead of the cast.
BB tiers are usually very condensed with a lot of characters being viable, including the low tiers, and whenever someone was bottom tier, they got buffs. The top tier didn’t get kneecap’d like SFV’s S1 chars did either. Well, maybe CS1 Rachel, but I didn’t play CS1. (Damn Arcsys and their reluctance to port to PC)
Even Tager got his days in the limelight. And it’s not like he didn’t have functional tools even when he was the worst char in the game. He was like, C tier.
Hazama was “unnerfable” because his kit is surprisingly well-designed and when they nerfed his rampant bullshit, he just pulled some different bullshit. (Fitiing, isn’t it?)
I’m giving the point to Zio on this one. BB is more on the balanced side because the tiers were well-condensed at pretty much every game.
ZioSerpe
3883
They probably still are top tier, my point was different, what I am saying is that even in BB there are so many top tiers that still have bad MUs and don’t invalidate the existence of the majority of the cast. in SFV there are a selected 3-4 characters per season that make everyone else usless
FlyingVe
3884
Up through CSEX at least BB tier lists were far more pronounced with the top tier having devastating matchups versus those below them. While CT was famously broken, 7-3 level matchups were very common. So I’m not sure that’s true.
Again, through CSEX, after that I’m not really knowledgeable.
Also, arksys is famous for kneecapping characters. Compared to Capcom, Arksys approach to balance back in the day was to overhaul everything regardless of weather it made sense. So you were never sure where the chips would land.
FlyingVe
3885
Kinda? Again I think it depends on the game. Through CSEX this really isn’t super true outside of a few odd cases (eg Bang having a 5-5 with Nu in CT).
But that’s kind of my point. The top tier in SFV has been pretty similar for 2 seasons, but that’s really not that long. And while strong they don’t have truly crushing matchups very frequently.
