1101

that is one nasty question…i checked this frame chart and it doesnt mention something like that…hmmm

researching for the answer**

1102

I would assume it’s about half way in. Like around frame 6 or 7.

1103

Ok here I am.

I was a Fei player in Vanilla. I never played SF series before the SF4 and after an year spent playing for fun
i start to read and read and read more about combos then link, matchups, frames and stuff and i start to play as smart as i
can (not spamming the same move) to improve my game.
I don’t have possibilities to play vs strong m8s in my town so i must learn it “the hard way” by doing and thinking and
doing thinking and losing again and again and again but at the end I started to have fun with him.
“to have fun with him” means to me that i can punish the “rookie” who uses the same 2 moves every time and got predictable
and i play tight matches against ppl who play “smart” and try some sort of mind game.

in SSF4 i moved to ibuki…
I’ve trained a lot, and actually i’m training everyday in a way i’ve never did with Fei at all.
I’ve no problem to perform B&B combos, links and hit confirm string with her but i have a lot of trouble understanding her mid game:
I know i must start my mind-game after an untechable knockout and before that i try to play a zoning game while i’m blocking
all the stuff they throw at me. but 80% of the time i obtain it when my opponent wiff something that make him land near me (like dp for shoto char)
if they wiff a move that puts them at safe distance i’m lost!!! i stare at them blocking and blocking, i get nervous and start to do
a lot of mistake, i become predictable and i LOST every time.

I simply cannot react to them while they’re jumping here and there landing low or high attack
and keeping me at distance while they repeat endlessly the same two moves i cannot react to.

I love her but i don’t “have fun” with her, i’m not feeling safe even against the rookiest of the ken who spams DP from the begining of the match
till the end. even if i know he is waking up using DP even if i know i must backdash and wait him to land before punish him i cannot feel safe
coz i know that if he touch me i’ll lose 1/4 of my lifebar. so i cannot put pressure. i start to turtle, he gains confidence
and i lost :smiley: (and ken is one of the char i can manage better than other… don’t talk to me about claws, blanka, boxer or dictator)

I lack the knowledge to wait for an opening during the attack of my opponent. I don’t know how to keep up the pressure and not turtling all the time.
i cannot attack them except when they wiff. but i realized that when i gain confidence (some rare match) and i can pressure them up
i end the game in a sec.

1104

Keep on practicing man. LOL.

1105

I know that’s the solution :smiley:
hoping for an online tutor we can discuss and try about ibuki game
but he’ll need a lot of patience :smiley:

1106

I have the same problem (and I mained Fei in vanilla too, so I understand what you feel…). I think it’s the most difficult part to learn: know how you can adapt to the “rhythm” of a fight: for example be able to be really offensive in order to have a life lead on the begining, and switch with a defensive attitude after that…; of course its juste an example… But sorry, I don’t know how you can work that! :-p If it’s just a problem with pressure maybe you can try to fight against gief/t.hawk in training mode (of course with master lvl)?

1107

i know how you feel m8.
same here actually :frowning:

the thing i’m having the most trouble with is people who keep on defending by crouching and jabbing at me…
its frustrating.
i never seem to be able to pull of a combo against these kind of players.
also happens when they jump in (if i didnt anti-air ofc)
they jump in , i block , they crouch and mash lk or lp …
im totally not able to do anything, or get anything in between…

anyone have advice on this style of playing ?

1108

One thing I noticed: after mained Fei, I have a real problem to use cr.HK correctly, and I think it’s the better answer against shoto’s cr.MK and blockstring pressure with double crouch light etc… If you guy have another idea against cr.MK I’ll take it!

1109

glad to hear i’m not alone out there :smiley:

yes i hate who turtle better than i do :smiley: (and it’s not so difficult) it’s a kind of wall i cannot jump :smiley:
and honestly i fear any crossup attempts… it seems to me they achieve this for free (even if I succesfully antiair or block them they continue over and over) while i succeed at it only few times and in the last fights I did no crossup at all (I know it’s a bad habit but i fear any attempt cos I don’t want to be punished badly by a reversal)

atm i’m trying to close up with more command dash than normal dash or slide (focusing my attention also on command dash crossup) but i feel a sort of lag between the command dash and the combo i want to start after i get in. obviously every opponent I encounter is a MASTER in punishing this!!

i know it could seem a sort of whine but it isn’t… I really want to improve my technique. I need a tutor… a skilled player who at least comment one of his video as he is explaining to a child: i did this because… i did that in order to achieve that or hoping he’ll do that… i think it could really help.

the video thread shows only skilled ibuki that are a galaxy away the thing i could think during one of my game

the critique thread it’s a collection of “Don’t do this and this and this” and every time i read it the question in my mind is always the same “ok i must not do this… but what can i do in that situation? what’s the best choice?”

Don’t misunderstand me, i don’t want to learn THE STYLE of play of other ibuki player.
and i don’t want to learn THE ABC of the game (i think i’ve learned at least the A and half of the B so far) i want to understand the ABC of ibuki. expecially how to set up the “pressure” and how to “pokes” the rookie ppl who continue to throw at u the same 2 moves… (that against me ARE ENOUGH!! :smiley: )

1110

the thing i notice after using Fei is that he has a damn long range with his pokes. and he can cover huge distance with his B&B combo. while ibuki has a slide and an AA that just POKE the opponent away without any considerable damage (compared with fei options) so from here the thought: “i must use them to start my attack phase…” and here is the point… i cannot … but i’ll try for sure…

I love her :smiley:

1111

:bgrin:

HA HA HA, same again … ! :rofl: Against that I found, like you, than command dash could be good. Maybe st.HK beats cross-up? I’m not sure, I find st.HK little hard to use, I prefer b.MP but it doesn’t work on cross up…

Of course neckbreaker should not be use randomly, but it is still a great move to punish from far away; also, you can use st.fw.LK into whatever or simply st.MK into what you want for punish. But here it’s my (our?) bigger problem, how to manage mid range… Shoto’s cr.MK fears me a lot, I can’t use fw.HK or (TC) far st.HP~HP that has a better range. I thought to the overhead fw.MK but it comes so slowly. So recently I tried to counter low mid range pokes with a sweep, it’s an option but I’m not convince: it often trades and it’s really punishable… :bluu: Maybe (TC) b.MK~fw.MK ? It’s not a link but the first MK has a good range and the overhead goes over fireball; I’ll try to night.

1112

Yeah I think the main problem u guys are having is that you are trying to play Ibuki too much like a typical SF character. You’re used to having a reliable dragon punch that knocks the opponent down and sets up for okizeme and having a poking game that covers a lot of range and issues. With Ibuki the idea is just to play really lame until you land a knockdown. The whole point of Ibuki I kind of attest to the way you had to play Yun in 3rd Strike. With Yun you didn’t have seriously good pokes (well until you got Genei Jin) and the whole point of the character was just to dive in and whiff c.MP’s to build meter (basically be lame as hell) until you got Genei Jin super. That’s when you could power through anything and win the fight.

**With Ibuki in Super SFIV it’s kinda similar. Your whole goal is to hit the opponent in a matter that will lead to an untechable knockdown. ** The more untechable knockdowns u land the higher your chances are of winning. Ibuki has 3 special moves that force the opponent into an untechable knockdown after they hit and 2 of them (MK Tsumuji and HP neck breaker) u can reliably follow up with vortex/safe jump LK crosses afterwards. For me I would say if you untech knockdown the opponent 4 times and still don’t win the fight…something’s wrong. Like how with Yun they would say if you get to activate Genei Jin more than 2 times in one round that basically means u should have won the fight. It’s almost impossible for Yun to even use 2 Genei Jin’s in a round and not win. Ibuki is basically a character completely designed around vortex. She’s average at best in most areas except for untech knockdowns. She has average shorter ranged pokes, average damage out put (minus her big damage jump in combos), average reversals (or worse) and so on. Though that works in her favor though because at least she is average in most things and then when she lands an untech knockdown she basically turns into a beast that everyone has to worry about.

You have to have that same mentality when u go into every fight. “What am I gonna do to land an untech knockdown on this character/player?” ** If you aren’t thinking about that as soon as round 1 starts…don’t pick Ibuki cuz you’re not gonna win. Unless you’re fighting a character that can completely slip out of it (Dictator) or a character that’s just generally risky to be near without a plan (Zangief) that should be your main goal. Even against Dictator there’s option selects u can use to stop him from at least teleporting away all the time. So basically to do this u want to use your tools to get yourself within c.LP range. ** Basically the whole idea of playing Ibuki is to land a c.LP (or s.MK that I’ll get into later). ** If you can land c.LP’s you can play Ibuki**. So in some ways you’re playing a very mobile version of Balrog. If you watch Momochi play against Daigo the majority of his gameplan was to slide in with max range df+MK and then once you got close enough focus on landing c.LP’s. c.LP is probably the most solid close range tool Ibuki has since it will hit people regardless if they are crouching or standing, it’s safe and if it lands u pretty much have no excuse for not landing an untech knockdown afterwards.

You have multiple things that u can do after you land that c.LP. Which the most reliable thing as far as hit boxes is to do the one frame link. Which is either c.LPx1/2/3 into s.MK into MK tsumuji or HP neck breaker. This is your most reliable combo since c.LP has the most range of all of your non command normals which can also combo into untech knockdowns. The only issue of course being that c.LP into s.MK is a 1 frame link which can get confused with s.LK, MK chain combo if your timing isn’t perfect on the plink. On the majority of characters though there’s a range just within minimum range for far s.LP where u can land c.LP, s.LP into s.MK into whatever. This is good because it works on most of the cast reliably minus Dictator, Rose, Blanka, Vega and a few others when they’re crouching. It’s a 3 frame link between the c.LP and s.LP so it’s impossible to miss timing wise unless u do it too fast. Your other most reliable combo is just to do c.LP into LK,MK target chain into whatever. This is good because it’s a 2 frame link after the c.LP and the target combo is safe on block. The opponent can probably DP you inbetween this combo on block but the risk is in your favor to do since they definitely can’t mash through the c.LP’s any way. Those last 2 combos don’t have as much range as c.LP to s.MK but as long as you’re not really far away from the opponent u can utilize those latter 2 combos.

When you get within closer range normals like c.LK, far or close s.LP and s.MP are also great to use because if any of those hit at close range you’re pretty much guaranteed free untech knockdown. c.LK at close range easily links into close s.LP which you then easily target combo into untech knockdown. Even at a slight distance where your s.LP turns into a far s.LP…unless you’re fighting against someone with a wonky hit box if u land a far s.LP that’s a free combo into s.MK into untech knockdown. s.MP is also great for this purpose because s.MP activates in 4 frames and does really good hit stun and is a great counter hit tool. Plus with s.MP at close range there’s no close range version of s.MP. So once you get in close range u can just force s.MP down people’s throats and if it hits just combo into far s.LP into untech knockdown. If you’re fighting against Blanka or Vega who can normally duck the s.LP afterwards u can just 1 frame plink into s.MK and then do the same thing. If you land a counter hit s.MP then u won’t have to plink at all.

**Probably the main other tool u should be using once u get closer to the opponent is s.MK. ** This is mainly because s.MK easily combos into MK tsumuji and u don’t really even need to hit confirm to use it. The opponent can mash reversal in between s.MK and MK tsumuji but once they block the first hit of the MK tsumuji they can’t DP anymore unless u try to use the sweep ender. The high spin kicks are true block strings. So with that u can use s.MK also at closer range as an easy way to start forcing untech knockdowns out of people. It’s also a pretty solid whiff punish and good for counter hitting so when you’re trying to contend against Ryu c.MK as you’re walking in u can use s.MK to try and counter hit him or whiff punish his c.MK.

In the end just know all of your tools that can lead to untech knockdowns. Those include c.LP, c.LK, close/far s.LP, c.MP, s.MP at closer ranges, max range c.HK, s.MK, f+MK overhead and counter hit level 1 or charged up level 2 focus attack. Use your kunais to build meter and set distance away when needed but for the most part unless you’re fighting a character that you’re forced to turtle against like Honda or Zangief just move in with max range df+MK then use all of the other tools mentioned as you get in to cause untech knockdowns.

1113

^^ only thing i don’t agree with is that cr.lp has the most range and can be cancelled into specials… what about cr.mp i haven’t heard that at all… other than that good post

1114

Funny you mentioned Yun DJ and whiff’ing cr.MP, because in a nutshell, my Ibuki does the same thing.

Start of the match can begin either way for me. I’ll either start with kunai zoning, and using slide to advance, or wait awhile for my opponent to react. Usually, when I get about mid-range I start playing my footsie game with whiff’ed cr.MP, safe slides, and cr.HK. Most of the time if my cr.MP ends up connecting, I’ll cancel between LK Tsumuji or MK Tsumuji (usually im careful about the MK Tsumuji on block since you can be mashed out of it, while in most cases, LK Tsumuji is safe on block), or if I want to start my close range game early I’ll cancel into LK Command Dash after the cr.MP. Once im close though it’s basically pressure from there on. knockdowns become easier to get, and your not at a disadvantage since your with in her prime zone. Definitely close to somewhat mid-range is Ibuki’s pressure options. And this is essentially where I try to keep myself.

Like DJ said, you should always try to come into a match knowing a little bit about that characters weaknesses when fighting Ibuki, and use that to formulate a quick knockdown strategy to keep yourself in the lead.

Outside of all that, this is usually how I visualize my playing area:

Full Screen/Long Distance- HP Kunai is a viable method of zoning. Slide is the best option of movement and can take me into mid range safely. F+MK, slide, and Neutral jump Kunai make fireballs really easy to deal with.

Mid Range- HP Kunai zoning is not as viable, but Neutral jump MP/LP kunai can be used in conjunction with cr.HK to get a quick knockdown. Cr.MP becomes my most reliable poke for whiff punishing, and footsies next to cr.HK. Using slide to get under fireballs is the best option at this range, and it can also place me in a safe position in close range if done correctly. cr.MP is my main way of getting in by canceling between LK/MK Tsumuji (and obtaining the knockdown from the MK version), and LK Command Dash to bring me into either a vortex situation or close range. Anti-Air if need be using mostly B+MP, cr.HP, and air throw.

Close range- Kunai zoning is no longer safe. cr.LP, st.LK, st.LP, st.MK, cr.LK all become viable options with cr.LP being the safest and most reliable. At this range, pressure game starts, and 90% of my move-set is usuable. Main goal in this range: Knockdown.

1115

Well to be more specific c.LP is your best ranged tool that doesn’t have long start up. c.MP is a solid poking tool I think but u mainly use it to whiff punish or counter hit from a really long range and without buffering or option selects (which I’m not sure u can do with c.MP) u can only really reliably combo into MK tsumuji afterwards or use it as a long range confirm into ultra 2 on bad whiffs from a range. c.MP I believe is a pretty solid tool specifically in the Dictator matchup but overall u want to stick to something that is quick and won’t get outprioritized or whiff punished too often.

1116

Like DJ said it’s a great tool(can be OS’s and Buffered btw) and is an invaluable tool for poking or ranged wiff punishing.
Crouching LP is your go to for the close up mix up though with it’s very short startup and that it opens you up to her entire library of follow ups unlike c.mp.

1117

What kinda tricks/commands are you guys using to OS/buffer with c.MP. I think that’ll definitely help in making c.MP more viable since it’s very long ranged and although it’s not as far as c.LP it actually recovers pretty quickly.

1118

Thanks DevilJin :china:

Go in training room! :lol: --> []

1119

You can usually buffer anything after cr.MP and have it connect, even neckbreaker. Buffering into LK/MK Tsumuji after a cr.MP will usually mean a full combo as long as it connects. Neckbreaker is another option, but you have to be careful with that one since your technically trying to hit-confirm it. cr.MP with any buffered command dash is pretty safe, and extremly useful when trying to get in quick. If they try to focus the cr.MP you can cancel into HK command dash to by pass it and get a free combo. I know meaty cr.MP can start-up some nice OS neckbreakers (especially against bison). After a blocked cr.MP>LK Tsumuji I believe it’s the correct range for a safe slide (and so far I have yet to be punished for it).

1120

If you use negative edge on neckbreaker or command dash you can SJC insta kunai or just take the sjc as an OS.