I mean you can definitely do without it, but it really does do a significant amount of more damage on characters you can land it on. Hell, I’m even messing around with her in training mode right now and that’s what I was practicing.
Don’t bother with the st.LP unless you are going for st.LP pressure. 2x cr.LP is plenty enough for a hitconfirm. Get used to it.
Unless you want to memorize this list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqClL3kJPchYdFlDd0VhMmt4R0w3TVdJQ2hHX29GLUE#gid=4
Thanks for the great advice guys it certainly made my day better, I’ll make sure to jump on it and start practicing more!
*And that list is crazy （ ﾟ Дﾟ）!
That list is one of the reasons why Ibuki’s so goddamn fun to play. ;D
Mad props to Mingo for compiling all that knowledge in one bundle and making it available to everyone. <3
Noob question incoming; why exactly would one want to use an extra st.LP in that combo? Don’t remember reading it anywhere. Is it just a leftover from Super, where cr.LP into st.MK was a 1-framer, or does it have some purpose behind it? Played another Ibuki yesterday, that spammed the combo a lot…big Thx in advance. =)
In Super, most Ibukis tended to go for cr.LP st.LP st.MK instead, since it was an easier 3f link, as opposed to 1f link (cr.LP st.MK).
I can’t find any use for it in AE, unless you want the 4f link, as opposed to 2f link. I think it just carried over because most of us were already used to doing it.
Man Ibuki looks fun as hell, I really wanna learn her but I’m learning to many characters…a lot of them take a lot of dedication as well (Akuma for e.g ;/) but she might just become my true alt.
What are some of Ibuki’s weakneses? Or rather, why isn’t she considered Top tier? On paper it seems like she has the tools to become at least bottom top; Good DMG, decent HP, good Anti-airs, reversal, easy vortex start, great vortex, good pokes/pressure/chip game, overhead that’s easy to combo from & safe, good Exs/Super, good Ultras, good Dash, great FA, etc. Yet I think she’s one of the lower placed vortex/mixup characters, why?
No DP without meter (nor can she hit-confirm it to save FADC usage). That’s it basically. SF4 comes down to the reversal dp at the end of the day.
Good damage - yes but most of max damage combos require 1f link jabs, which are quite difficult unless you plink with select. On top of that, her combo-ability is incredibly character specific. Her bnb target combo 4 can whiff on a number of crouches, even on hit, despite being a target combo that is meant to force stand.
Decent hp - 900hp is decent?
Good antiairs - yeah, but she has like 10 different antiairs you have to worry about, plus what followup setup you want. Compare that to a shoto who’s antiair is basically dp and that’s all you have to think about. Not to mention her usual go-to antiair, b+MP, has a crap hitbox (imo) so it can often trade against certain jumpins (eg: Ryu j.HP), and the trade is almost never in Ibuki’s favor.
Reversal - EX kazegiri requires meter and is heavily punishable by most of the cast, or universally punishable with FA (50/50 though). I’d gladly trade this for Yun’s dp so I can fly away to the other side and only risk getting punished with a sweep or something. I really wish Capcom would give Ibuki an EX command dash, similar to Yang’s, so that her wakeup isn’t so free.
Easy vortex start - as Ibuki, it’s generally hard getting a knockdown and starting your vortex, against good opponents that know the matchup.
Great vortex - I agree.
Good pokes - I think most of her pokes are situational. Compare hers to Chun’s st.MP or Fei’s cr.MP which they can basically spam mindlessly and stuff everything.
Good pressure - I guess so, but shouldn’t every rush down character have a good pressure game?
Chip game - tsumuji is about the only thing guaranteeing chip, besides kunai (generally not safe) and super. Not that you would be ending most of your games with chip damage anyways, since Ibuki’s dmg output is fairly high.
Overhead - she gets to combo afterward, at the price of it being incredibly slow (25f startup). You will almost never hit anybody with this thing unless you are catching a crouch tech or something.
Good EX - such as?
Good super - I guess, but the only ways you can land super is off SJC super or hien. SJC super is like SJC U2, except you get some okizeme off it. In other words, the damage increase is usually not as good than if you simply ended with a neckbreaker, and especially not as good if you tsumuji looped. And using hien is kind of gimmicky. Either way, Ibuki can play very well with or without meter/super. I usually just save it for EX kazegiri FADC so I have a gtfo jail free card.
Good ultras - I really wish they put shortcuts for U1. Scrubby as it sounds, but the times you use U1 are usually in clutch situations to punish something, like Dudley’s MGB. And in that split second of reaction, you can’t be worried about inputs, compared to other ultras in the game where you can basically get it off with like just 4 inputs. In AE2012 they will be changing this to be antiair-able, so we’ll just have to see how useful this buff will be. Most likely not necessary, since she has great setups off her antiairs, but I’m thinking it could possibly be used like a ultra raida against dive kickers. Her U2 is ok. They will be changing it so it can juggle (thank fucking god) so you can finally use it as an option select. But the usual way to land it is off SJC U2 and the damage increase is pretty pathetic. Not to mention you get little okizeme afterward if any. But anyways, Ibuki doesn’t need to land her ultra every round to be successful.
Good dash - I agree. But I wish Capcom put more emphasis on Ibuki’s walkspeed and normals, instead of giving a dash to compensate.
I disagree. I believe SF4 comes down to maximum use of low risk/high reward options.
There’s lots of characters that have a reversal dp, but are not top tier. Ryu, Guile, etc. And what about those characters that have a reversal, but isn’t a dp type per se? eg: Boxer’s EX dash, Rufus’s EX messiah kick.
Thanks for your responses. Yea the only thing I thought of right away was her DP/Reversal. Is that really the only thing that stops her from being higher tho? even checking Mingo’s reply, there is nothing that really sticks out apart from that. Its important of course, but more chars only have a 1 bar decent reversal (Cody for E.G that people say is gonna be top…Altho Sand/FADC helps & different character of course. Mako etc). But she’s a hard to master character it seems
I thought I would have trouble with the 1 framers too, but TBH I’ve watched a bunch of Ibuki vids today and no one except for Sako seems to have been going for her loops. F-word/EU Ibuki, Clakey D, some replays from members here, no one really went for loops and managed fine. Guess I gotta try her out myself, she seems so gdlk but I know she isn’t. Also Hm, I can only combo into ultra through SJC huh, guess I gotta master that first else I’ll prob. never use her Ultras which sucks lol
EX Messiah Kick is so good because of it’s follow-ups, and also very easy to hit-confirm or whatever. Ryu is a massively better character than Ibuki. Guile has a charge DP, so he isn’t able to pull one off whenever (after blocking a jump-in he can’t reversal directly after so pressure is massively different against him).
Sure, the most consistent player is the one that takes the least amount of risks, and its rational when doing so (risk/reward). Which is why Iyo is the best Ibuki player whilst doing nothing of which we talk about in these forums, but at the end of the day without a meterless DP the risk/reward of many situations changes drastically.
Like with Makoto, I can’t punish a mix of your options with just one move. You tap me with a light, and there’s nothing I can do which will stop you from jumping, doing another one, going for a throw, and focus attacking at the same time. This makes Makoto’s best getaway ability her backdash which is unuseable in the corner. Give Dhalsim even Dan’s DP and he’ll be S-tier. Granted Makoto doesn’t really need a DP to be good because her damage output is so high, but she can’t be a consistent character, she has to make more guesses than other characters.
Ibuki has to make more guesses when it comes to being pressured than other characters. Her pressure is only as good as her opponent’s experience of the match-up past having a DP of their own.
At the end of the day the player with the best decision making is the best player. The more guesses they have to make , the less likely they are to win. Anf from the point of view from being pressured, having no DP means that even when you know exactly what your opponent is going to do, you can’t do anything about it.
That’s an argument for 3S > SFIV (or any 3D fighter over SF)
P.S. I’m not complaining, it’s just how I see SFIV. I like that about it, but I do prefer VF and how it doesn’t have bad match-ups.
Ibuki is actually not that bad of a character as some members make her out to be. With good spacing, pressure, smart play, and high damage. She just isn’t for new players because she really can’t take a hit.
How come c.mp x sjc, u2 isn’t as used in footsies as it should be?
The confirm is fairly easy, and it’s 450dmg~ guaranteed in one hit.
You said characters have to have a dp to be good. But why dp? Wouldn’t any other great reversal like EX messiah kick and EX dash serve the same purpose? Or are you talking about antiair purposes only?
Every character has a gtfo move, whether it’s bingo or dp. But having a reversal option does not automatically make you top tier. If Dhalsim had a dp, yes he’ll be a hell of a lot stronger, but I doubt he’d be S tier since his current antiair options are already strong, and having a dp would not affect his bad matchups as much as having let’s say, a good crouch tech.
I’m not talking about anti-airs. From watching a lot of NSB and even EVO, most of the damage and match deciders are from guessing when a reversal happens, or simply building enough meter to FADC one. It’s not anti-airs, that doesn’t really matter since jumping is not a good idea really.
The strong characters are ones with a mashable DP-like move. EX Messiah is world’s better than EX Kazegiri. The motion is important as well, if you cross Ibuki up in a reset she still has to guess what side you land on 'cause EX Hien might come out by accident. Yes I’m saying that characters who can mash a DP in the middle of strings are the best.
Having a DP (mostly with FADC-able meter), puts the risk on the opponent.
Top 32 evo that did NOT have a dp FADC move:
Juicebox (Juri, Abel)
801Strider (Makoto, Abel)
Shiro (Makoto)
Fchamp (Dhalsim)
Again, if it’s not being used for antiair, then non-dp type reversals are just as good. EX TT, EX karakusa, etc. I don’t know why everything has to be a dp with you.
Okay, you did a list of people who didn’t in top 32, do a list of the people that did. One of them is even meant to be one of the most dominant people in the game (Fchamp, who I think used Seth also).
But you know, I don’t think we can agree on this. No hard feelings, I don’t want to tick you off too much 'cause it’s great fun practising with you.
The rest of the list is more like Yun/Fei and characters that can deal with them.
He probably used Seth because Dhalsim vs Yun is possibly the worst matchup in the game.
Yea this is pretty much what I was thinking cause I heard a lot of complaints. I guess its just once you mastered her you really see her potential and before that you;'ll struggle a lot.
Well im gonna start my Ibuki training today lol
Hey, the loops are awesome! Whenever I pull one out online, it’s a small victory by itself. ;D
Now that I think of it, is it DP punishable if I miss the timing on the jab after a tsumuji in the loop? By a frame or two, for example (I suck at reading frame data). Because whenever I do so, people just block. Just askin’ if I can go for some chip or dash cancels whenever my timings decide to take a vacation.