I thought Capcom wanted to make SFIV more accessible to casual players?

[specs]

Quality of life improvements won’t wreck anybody’s precious and totally arbitrary difficulty thresholds.

Re: chains: they aren’t “dial a combo.” The reason chains rock and are way better than links is because they can have varied timing and different branches. Links are harder to perform, usually ways more static (much more “dial a combo,” just with stricter timing), and dull from any standpoint that isn’t consistent performance.

[TheRetroKid]

Okay, so let’s say that the next Street Fighter game does away with those evil links, makes inputs even easier and cuts the cast in half so that we have to learn less match ups. In addition, combos will be easier to perform due to buffering windows and further increased hit stun…what’s left?

New players seem to think that execution, dexterity and precise timing are unfair barriers that are keeping them from attaining the success they feel they deserve, but in reality, that same dexterity, execution and precise timing is what makes the game competitive. Those elements that the new players hate so much are the very things add human element and temporary excellence to a fighting game player.

Why temporary? Let’s take any and every top player. We’ve all seen them win countless victories due to great reads, reactions and execution…but we’ve also seen them fudge inputs, drop combos, or make wrong reads. All those things come together in a perfect blend and bring an actual physical element to video games, which are usually static, or at least require only a few button presses and nothing more. Yes, top players are amazing, but they are also susceptible to missing links, combos and commands…once you get to a certain level, it doesn’t mean you never make mistakes. The demands some folks are making are taking away any chance of human error or mistake. Why would a clutch combo, come back, well-timed reversal or amazing read under pressure be amazing if there were no room for error in them?

Can you imagine what a match would look like if execution, errors and physically demanding elements were taken out? It would just be a game of turtling until someone did something absolutely stupid, which would then get punished by an obviously long and optimized combo that wouldn’t have a chance of being dropped. After the knockdown, a jump in would either lead to another optimized combo or a flawless reversal, which would lead back to turtling and waiting for another super mistake to punish.

The human element of video games is expressed almost perfectly in fighting games, with a great mix of physical training, mental quickness and strategy. Why does everyone want to turn it into either a turn-based theory fighter card game or lower the bar so as much that there’s no room for excellence?

If players are getting frustrated because they’re losing, it’s obviously because they’re trying to bite off more than they can chew and trying to stand toe to toe with someone more experienced. Instead if demanding experience, dexterity, knowledge and skill not be a factor, why not admit they’re not as good as they want to be (yet) and play against someone their level until they get a better grasp of the game?

[Nooneyouknow]

.

Okay, so let’s say that the next Street Fighter game does away with those evil links, makes inputs even easier and cuts the cast in half so that we have to learn less match ups. In addition, combos will be easier to perform due to buffering windows and further increased hit stun…what’s left?

New players seem to think that execution, dexterity and precise timing are unfair barriers that are keeping them from attaining the success they feel they deserve, but in reality, that same dexterity, execution and precise timing is what makes the game competitive. Those elements that the new players hate so much are the very things add human element and temporary excellence to a fighting game player.

Why temporary? Let’s take any and every top player. We’ve all seen them win countless victories due to great reads, reactions and execution…but we’ve also seen them fudge inputs, drop combos, or make wrong reads. All those things come together in a perfect blend and bring an actual physical element to video games, which are usually static, or at least require only a few button presses and nothing more. Yes, top players are amazing, but they are also susceptible to missing links, combos and commands…once you get to a certain level, it doesn’t mean you never make mistakes. The demands some folks are making are taking away any chance of human error or mistake. Why would a clutch combo, come back, well-timed reversal or amazing read under pressure be amazing if there were no room for error in them?

Can you imagine what a match would look like if execution, errors and physically demanding elements were taken out? It would just be a game of turtling until someone did something absolutely stupid, which would then get punished by an obviously long and optimized combo that wouldn’t have a chance of being dropped. After the knockdown, a jump in would either lead to another optimized combo or a flawless reversal, which would lead back to turtling and waiting for another super mistake to punish.

The human element of video games is expressed almost perfectly in fighting games, with a great mix of physical training, mental quickness and strategy. Why does everyone want to turn it into either a turn-based theory fighter card game or lower the bar so as much that there’s no room for excellence?

If players are getting frustrated because they’re losing, it’s obviously because they’re trying to bite off more than they can chew and trying to stand toe to toe with someone more experienced. Instead if demanding experience, dexterity, knowledge and skill not be a factor, why not admit they’re not as good as they want to be (yet) and play against someone their level until they get a better grasp of the game?

Did you even read this shit before you posted it? Making moves and combos more intuitive, fluid and yes, easier, does nothing to remove player reactions, tendencies, reads, or baits from the game. No one goes into a an intermediate or higher match of any FG and says “I’m going to go balls in and not turtle because there’s a chance my opponent might drops his combos!” People will always make judgement errors, get baited, or simply not react fast enough no matter how low the execution barrier is.

Chain combos get dropped all the time. As as much as people often say they want to “make their own combos instead of using the ones the devs put in for us” links are every bit as predetermined as chains, unless hitstun values are assigned by throwing darts at a board. Chains tend to offer more options than links, because they’re designed around flowing through paths. BlazBlue and GG are actually vastly easier at the “I just picked up this game for the first time” level because of their overall intuitive chains for moderate rewards, yet GG especially is harped on as being the hardest fighter of all time rather often. Vampire Savior chains are not only simple and intuitive, but tend to actually represent the characters B&B combos at all levels of play, the difficultly in Vsav comes from defense far more than offense. The only reason these games still have smaller communities is that they aren’t Street Fighter. The main stream recognition to the IP is just not out there enough, and their publishers aren’t throwing enough money at advertising to get them to even register on the gaming radars of non-FG players.

[DoctaMario]

A newcomer today has it just as hard with all the information that was required to be decent, but a million times easier due to instant access to that information. Think about this complaint and put it into perspective:

there’s no IN-GAME tutorial for footsies…I have to reach for my tablet, go to youtube, and watch one that some caring individual made for me. ON TOP OF THAT, I also have to go to my smart phone and visit SRK to read about everything I’ll need to know about my game, character and recent advances in gameplay…but that’s too hard…I want the game to teach me.

Geez.

Don’t you think it’s kind of fucked up that basically the meat of the game, the parts that REALLY matter once you get beyond the mashing level, are the parts that the game NEVER tells you about, either in the manual or in the game itself? I mean, in a sense, it’s kinda cool that there’s a whole other game waiting for you, kinda like the upside-down castle in SotN, but on the other hand…you could play the regular castle in Castlevania and be ok with the game. You can’t do that in SF4, if you’re playing online, or beyond your jackass drunk friends. I have pretty damn good footsies, and I beat people I know have spent a lot more time with SF4 than I have. Footsies are pretty fucking important, and they’re never mentioned.

If you think about it, footsies are basically another in-game mechanic, but one that’s NEVER touched upon in the manual, the game, etc. Unless you hit up SRK, Sonichurricane, or the SF Wiki, you’d NEVER know about any of that.

That’s because footsies is a concept and meta game developed by the community and players, which is then implemented via the toolset provided by the game. Not every character can play footsies as well or the same as the next because it’s not a tool in every character’s box, but noobs want to act like the only reason they don’t play footsies is because it wasn’t included in the tutorial. Footsies is different for every character, situation and playstyle, and the demand for a tutorial on footsies shows just how little they grasp about the concept. They treat it like a general blanket strat that works the same for everyone when it’s super dependent on the matchup. You know how long and in-depth a footsie tutorial would have to be if it were included in the game? It would have to be character specific and address individual match-ups.The truth of the matter is if they’re too impatient and can’t be bothered to do something as simple as hit up the forums, then they don’t have the capacity or patience to learn it in general.

Same deal for counter-hit setups. If these guys are complining about 1-frame links, how are they supposed to react to the counter hit and punish when they refuse to develop proper, precise and accurate timing?

Let me ask you, how would a footsies tutorial be taught? Would it be per character? Would it practice against Dan? Or would you have every character in the cast show up and whiff moves? What moves would the dummy whiff? Would the tutorial tell you to wiggle your stick back and forth, occasionally crouching to pretend like you’re going to hit a low normal to bait a whiffed move to punish?

Because all those things can be done by programming the training dummy…but I guess that’s too much work for players who want to skip right to being good competition.

I think your argument would be valid if we were still back at SF2. But it’s 20+ years later and we’re at the tail end of SF4, and the concept of footsies is almost as old as the series itself. Having a bit of the tutorial that talks about controlling space and the various concepts of the game like Counter Hits itself wouldn’t hurt and it would be simple to make. It’s not like you have to create any new in-game property for it. Capcom’s just lazy. Other games have touched on it, why won’t Capcom, especially when they’re the maker of the most popular fighting game that isn’t Tekken? Capcom said initially that SF4 was going to help teach a new generation of players how to play fighting games (in so many words anyway) but they have the most bare-bones tutorial/trial mode of probably any game this generation (of the ones I’ve played anyway.)

There are plenty of worthless combo and link trials, why not use some of that space to say, “Hey, your low Forward kick is good when your opponent is here, and is quick/Low Fierce is good when your opponent is jumping at you/etc.” How hard is that? Footsies is a bit of an abstract idea, but trying to make some sense of it and presenting even a basic idea of what it is will go a long way. It doesn’t have to be complete and really long, just touching on it would help a lot.

It seems like you’re on the “well, I had to do it that way, so why shouldn’t they?” bandwagon, and you have yet to provide a reason as to what would be wrong with an in-game tutorial other than, “fuck new people, let them hunt for that shit.” Do you drive a horse & buggy instead of a car because “that’s how they did it back then?”

[factory9]

Honestly, what methods that Capcom took to “make the game more accessible” actually did as such?

I know fucking up the inputs didn’t do jack shit for it.

I don’t really feel much of a difference in difficulty getting into CvS2 as I did this game. Honestly learning CvS2 might have been easier.

[TheRetroKid]

My horse is perfectly healthy, thank you very much! No, seriously…

I agree, the series has been around for 20 years, and as such, the concept of footsies has also been around for years. The thing is, like I mentioned, it’s a concept that is applied to the overall approach of the game rather than a built-in game mechanic. As a video game, it’s not necessary to learn in order to play the game, just like it’s not necessary for someone to learn how to learn the triangle offense in basketball to play a pick-up game or shoot around. As a competitive game, it’s absolutely necessary, but if a player is seeking competition and to elevate their game, then that’s when their time and effort would be better spent interacting with actual players as opposed to doing tutorials.

Speaking of tutorials, if a player needs a tutorial to know how far a normal move will hit, well then I’m at a loss. It’s a leg. It sticks out. If that leg comes in contact with the opponent, it will register a hit. Do people really need a tutorial to show them how to walk up to an opponent and then crouch and hit a button? Even if it was provided, unless every game is played on a stage with built in rulers (training stage) then it all comes back to being eyeball the distance on the fly. It would be faster to just play the game and just press the button. You can see how far the move goes and go from there. See? Simple =)

I thought that I had provided an explanation as to why a footsie tutorial wouldn’t be prudent, but in short, it would have to be character specific, both with the users character and the opponent. What works for one may not work for another. In addition, footsies isn’t just about knowing what normals are good, but also when to use them, how to bait and how to punish a whiff. It’s also about spacing and taking up space. It would save everyone (programmers and players) time if they just went to sonichurricane.com, or the character specific forums for that information. I honestly don’t think it’s that hard.

Again, I’m not against new players…hell, I’m labeled a dirty 09’er (despite being 33). I would lover more people to pick up the game, but at what point is accessibility going to affect longevity and competitive play on a high level?

People will always feel like they should play at high a level because they think they can see the game at a high level, and so they want to eliminate the physical element of the game, and I simply disagree. My opinion won’t sway Capcom as much as the next guy, and maybe when SFV comes out, I’ll pull a Kuroda and stay with the prior interation, but that’s why we’re on the forums, right? To talk about the game?

P.S. leave my horse out of future comments.

[DoctaMario]

My horse is perfectly healthy, thank you very much! No, seriously…
P.S. leave my horse out of future comments.

I cracked up hard at this :lol:

I agree, the series has been around for 20 years, and as such, the concept of footsies has also been around for years. The thing is, like I mentioned, it’s a concept that is applied to the overall approach of the game rather than a built-in game mechanic. As a video game, it’s not necessary to learn in order to play the game, just like it’s not necessary for someone to learn how to learn the triangle offense in basketball to play a pick-up game or shoot around. As a competitive game, it’s absolutely necessary, but if a player is seeking competition and to elevate their game, then that’s when their time and effort would be better spent interacting with actual players as opposed to doing tutorials.

Speaking of tutorials, if a player needs a tutorial to know how far a normal move will hit, well then I’m at a loss. It’s a leg. It sticks out. If that leg comes in contact with the opponent, it will register a hit. Do people really need a tutorial to show them how to walk up to an opponent and then crouch and hit a button? Even if it was provided, unless every game is played on a stage with built in rulers (training stage) then it all comes back to being eyeball the distance on the fly. It would be faster to just play the game and just press the button. You can see how far the move goes and go from there. See? Simple =)

I thought that I had provided an explanation as to why a footsie tutorial wouldn’t be prudent, but in short, it would have to be character specific, both with the users character and the opponent. What works for one may not work for another. In addition, footsies isn’t just about knowing what normals are good, but also when to use them, how to bait and how to punish a whiff. It’s also about spacing and taking up space. It would save everyone (programmers and players) time if they just went to sonichurricane.com, or the character specific forums for that information. I honestly don’t think it’s that hard.

Again, I’m not against new players…hell, I’m labeled a dirty 09’er (despite being 33). I would lover more people to pick up the game, but at what point is accessibility going to affect longevity and competitive play on a high level?

People will always feel like they should play at high a level because they think they can see the game at a high level, and so they want to eliminate the physical element of the game, and I simply disagree. My opinion won’t sway Capcom as much as the next guy, and maybe when SFV comes out, I’ll pull a Kuroda and stay with the prior interation, but that’s why we’re on the forums, right? To talk about the game?

Maybe the idea is to take existing things like have a top player do a video that’s sort of an overview of the SonicHurricane article and say, “Hey, use moves that extend upward to anti-air” etc. I don’t think it would really even have to be that in depth or character specific. I think just introducing new players to the concept that a punch isn’t just a punch, it CONTROLS SPACE and they could do the math themselves and figure out how it works for the characters themselves. It’s not actually a hard concept, just one that most people don’t think about really. Even after all the years of playing SF2, I never really thought about the footsies thing. I mean, I KNEW a lot of that stuff already before i saw the SH article, but it came as a result of playing the game for a long time.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with at least streamlining the information so that players have it available rather than having to scour the net for it. If anything, when Capcom releases patches, they could update the trials to better reflect the current meta of the game.

I think if the games have decent tutorials that concretely explain the concepts, then the sky’s the limit on complexity as long as players like the game. Personally, I think Tekken’s too complicated, but it’s one of the most played fighters in the world so I don’t think it’s a matter people not liking the complexity of it, it’s just that a lot of the concepts that we take for granted as FG players are pretty foreign to people who don’t play them at all or just started playing them.

[grumpy64]

[quote=“Time_pants, post:155, topic:170024”]

[quote=“grumpy64, post:153, topic:170024”]

You can now jump around and mash jab with almost every character without any fear of anti-air or grabs. Yeah, Ultra sure isn’t casual friendly.

Just because the consequences of playing like an idiot are less severe than in previous games doesn’t mean a game is “casual friendly.” Do people playing the way you just described win tournaments? Or even against other players who aren’t at the same level?

Be honest: did you even read past the first sentence of that post you quoted?

actually yes i did read the entire post but it’s the first few lines that i would like to discuss. A poster above u pointed that u indeed can mash and play sf. You then asked if a player playing that way won tourneys The simple fact that u asked the question implies that u think they should or that u think noobs and scrubs not being on equal footing with experienced pros is somehow a flaw. While i respect your opinion i can’t agree with it. Lets use BB as an example they said the guy that won literally plays thousands of hours. Frankly i think it would be disgusting if a player with that much dedication had no advantage over a casual

[grumpy64]

oh i love both tekken and sf and i can tell u sf noobs have a lot more resources then tekken noobs

[grumpy64]

oh do any of u remember the old days when tech was guarded and nobody shared? I remember back when people put their coat over the stick just to hide their motions

[MachoRhombus]

.Did you even read this shit before you posted it? Making moves and combos more intuitive, fluid and yes, easier, does nothing to remove player reactions, tendencies, reads, or baits from the game. No one goes into a an intermediate or higher match of any FG and says “I’m going to go balls in and not turtle because there’s a chance my opponent might drops his combos!” People will always make judgement errors, get baited, or simply not react fast enough no matter how low the execution barrier is.

Chain combos get dropped all the time. As as much as people often say they want to “make their own combos instead of using the ones the devs put in for us” links are every bit as predetermined as chains, unless hitstun values are assigned by throwing darts at a board. Chains tend to offer more options than links, because they’re designed around flowing through paths. BlazBlue and GG are actually vastly easier at the “I just picked up this game for the first time” level because of their overall intuitive chains for moderate rewards, yet GG especially is harped on as being the hardest fighter of all time rather often. Vampire Savior chains are not only simple and intuitive, but tend to actually represent the characters B&B combos at all levels of play, the difficultly in Vsav comes from defense far more than offense. The only reason these games still have smaller communities is that they aren’t Street Fighter. The main stream recognition to the IP is just not out there enough, and their publishers aren’t throwing enough money at advertising to get them to even register on the gaming radars of non-FG players.

As you said in your post, Vampire Savior, Blazblue, Guilty Gear and hell, I’ll include Marvel are all based on chains with their combo systems, they are different games than Street Fighter, why does Street Fighter have to change? There’s already chain-based games out there, leave this thing alone.

I think your argument would be valid if we were still back at SF2. But it’s 20+ years later and we’re at the tail end of SF4, and the concept of footsies is almost as old as the series itself. Having a bit of the tutorial that talks about controlling space and the various concepts of the game like Counter Hits itself wouldn’t hurt and it would be simple to make. It’s not like you have to create any new in-game property for it. Capcom’s just lazy. Other games have touched on it, why won’t Capcom, especially when they’re the maker of the most popular fighting game that isn’t Tekken? Capcom said initially that SF4 was going to help teach a new generation of players how to play fighting games (in so many words anyway) but they have the most bare-bones tutorial/trial mode of probably any game this generation (of the ones I’ve played anyway.)

There are plenty of worthless combo and link trials, why not use some of that space to say, “Hey, your low Forward kick is good when your opponent is here, and is quick/Low Fierce is good when your opponent is jumping at you/etc.” How hard is that? Footsies is a bit of an abstract idea, but trying to make some sense of it and presenting even a basic idea of what it is will go a long way. It doesn’t have to be complete and really long, just touching on it would help a lot.

It seems like you’re on the “well, I had to do it that way, so why shouldn’t they?” bandwagon, and you have yet to provide a reason as to what would be wrong with an in-game tutorial other than, “fuck new people, let them hunt for that shit.” Do you drive a horse & buggy instead of a car because “that’s how they did it back then?”

Because most casuals won’t even touch it, that’s basically the point of it. Casuals don’t go in-depth in games, casuals don’t go to tournaments, casuals don’t try to play at a high level. Casuals play casually and most people playing the games are casuals, the people who will stick with the game are the people who either already know how to play or who will try to get to their level, in the 2nd case there’s a ton of user-made resources out there. Is it lazy by Capcom? you bet, are there a ton of answers to those player’s problems out there on the internet? of course there are.

If a player wants to learn, they’ll learn. You don’t need Capcom to get better.

[Warrior_s_Dreams]

[Muttonman]

I don’t think Street Fighter needs chains, but bufferable links would serve the same purpose in terms of execution and flow while keeping the actual gameplay the exact same.

[BravoDox]

The simple fact of the matter is that you need the human element to sell a game of Street Fighter. New players play because their friends play. Nobody is going to buy a copy of Street Fighter with no friends to play it with, and enjoy it. Street Fighter is a community game and always has been. Everyone I’ve introduced to the game, I’ve always had to walk them through it and give them “training with sensei”, then suggest an opponent of a similar level to spar with. There’s an entire process to getting people interested in the game.

[jebop]

The simple fact of the matter is that you need the human element to sell a game of Street Fighter. New players play because their friends play. Nobody is going to buy a copy of Street Fighter with no friends to play it with, and enjoy it. Street Fighter is a community game and always has been. Everyone I’ve introduced to the game, I’ve always had to walk them through it and give them “training with sensei”, then suggest an opponent of a similar level to spar with. There’s an entire process to getting people interested in the game.

Humans are low tier.

[niku13]

i was surprised how good the BB/p4a/KoF tutorial system is compared to sf.

I wish Sf had a better tutorial trial system, release new trials regularly, hell make your own and share them.
CAN YOU DO THIS COMBO BILLYFAGHAMMER6969 CAN DO, DOWNLOAD AND SEE.
etc
Capcom needs to get with the times, their franchise is old and is starting to show its age, which is shitty because IMO it is the best one.

After rereading a lot of the comments on here, I just want to say i do not want Capcom to change links or chains, or make it easier. Or harder.
I just want a better trial mode.
Where i live atm it is hard to get people on XBL and I just really want to level up so when I move back to civilisation I can join a FGC in my area.
What is right for me might not be right for you.

-my 2c

[drwill439]

i was surprised how good the BB/p4a/KoF tutorial system is compared to sf.

I wish Sf had a better tutorial trial system, release new trials regularly, hell make your own and share them.
CAN YOU DO THIS COMBO BILLYFAGHAMMER6969 CAN DO, DOWNLOAD AND SEE.
etc
Capcom needs to get with the times, their franchise is old and is starting to show its age, which is shitty because IMO it is the best one.
-my 2c

Hell, add Skullgirls to the list.
People won’t automatically go to the trials because its under the Challenge option. If I’m starting a new game, I certainly don’t want a fucking challenge right off the bat, I want to learn what buttons do what things and when.
I don’t think that custom trials are needed, and neither are new trials. I think that if Capcom made new trials, it would take away from the desire to try to learn what moves should be done when because you’d just bang them out like Ono said to. I think that they just need a simple tutorial like Injustice did ("Hey, its your first time playing, do you wanna learn the basics?) so that they can get players in the door. From there, with that little bit of knowledge, you feel that the game is accessible because you learned the simple stuff instead of having to figure the simple stuff out on your own.

[niku13]

Well if they dont make the AI better what else do i have to do. Training mode over and over? That shit gets old man. Really old.

As I said what is right for me might not be right for you.

** and the reverse is true. You are right a better tutorial system would be really handy.
HELL sign me up for a monthy sub service where I DL lessons and shit. have to complete trials and lessons as homework. L2not be fucking free.

fml.

[drwill439]

Well if they dont make the AI better what else do i have to do. Training mode over and over? That shit gets old man. Really old.

As I said what is right for me might not be right for you.

** and the reverse is true. You are right a better tutorial system would be really handy.
HELL sign me up for a monthy sub service where I DL lessons and shit. have to complete trials and lessons as homework. L2not be fucking free.

fml.

You take your training mode shit and go to play online or with friends. Every fight teaches you something. I got my ass eviscerated in 3S yesterday, but I kept going because I wanted to know where I was fucking up. Imma grind on that game some today, but you see my point.
Train, fight , learn, rinse, repeat.

[niku13]

I totally understand what you are saying and for most people that would be true but where I am right now, no green bars to anyone (Rural Australia).
There is one person I play but he is way way above me. I dont know anyone within 500 miles of me who plays sf4.

When I move back to the city I want to join a FGC but I dont want to waste this time I have now. Also it can always be done better.

I mentioned it in my above post but I think I edited it after you replied. (was distracted by work)
hence why what is right for me might not be right for you.

-n