Has anyone made a flowchart for Hawkeye zoning?
If not who should I be watching?
I’d watch Treblig but his team has different assists than I’d like.
I did a lot of lab work today about input buffers, to address the issue of players getting accidental Healing Fields and Hawkeye Level 3s when they want Phoenix Rage and Kiss of Fire. Not sure how known or understood this is, but I’ll share my findings anyway.
Hawkeye’s L3 has more priority than Super Scatter Shot. If you do 214236AtkAtk fast enough, you’ll get his L3, not SSS, even if the motion is 100% correct.
During HyperFreeze, at the startup of a hyper, the input buffer is essentially extended, from before the hyper freeze, all the way to the end of the hyper freeze.
What this means is, if you do 214L/M/H(trick shots, etc), any time during or immediately before HyperFreeze, you will not be able to do SSS; the 214 motion will still be in the buffer, and any attempt to do sss and press multiple attack buttons will override it with the higher-priority L3. Even if you don’t press the button for the trick shot, the motion is still there.
Any combination of 2, followed by 1, followed by 4, in the input buffer, will essentially prevent you from doing SSS. I wouldn’t really call this a glitch, personally, as it’s just the input buffer working as intended, and choosing one of two options that you’ve met the input requirement for based on priority. People like Viscant and Chris G have attributed this to some kind of hard to quantify bug, but all the testing I’ve done has produced straight forward results on the issue(except for a minor hiccup that doesn’t affect hypers at all, but I digress).
tl - dr ; When you get ant man instead of super scatter shot, it’s because his L3 has more priority, and you input 214 during or immediately before the hyperfreeze. Try to be more careful with trickshots, and 214 motions in general, as they leave you vulnerable to yolo hypers and what have you.
Let me know if this was already, like, generally understood or just regarded as buggy marvel mystique. :]
This game has some of the worst input recognition I’ve seen outside of an SNK game.
I have no idea why 641236 is recognized as 623 instead of (41)236. In a sane game, any 4 input should immediately cancel a 623 sequence. And because this game only has “attack” buttons (instead of punches and kicks), input overlap is much more of an issue than in other Marvel games.
If it operated under silly rules like that, I wouldn’t be able to 236214AtkAtk and get a Hard Drive no matter what tapdance the opponent was trying to do underneath me. The input system in place is, functionally, very cut and dry. There is a specific buffer window, time wise, and the game will recognize whatever the highest priority input in that window is. Pretty much every game ever that has a DP motion does this, by recognizing 623 as higher priority than 236, to avoid accidental 6236 fireballs even though they’re chronologically higher priority in that motion.
Also, more Hawkeye labwork information:
Violet Fizz is supposed to do 90k as a DoT over 5 seconds, but does more than that(up to ~105k, but in realistic match practicality, between 90k and 95k), based on the amount of hitstop that happens while it’s active.
Simple example video is here: http://youtu.be/cAxTMOHGdXk
And more in depth explanations are here: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/637240-ultimate-marvel-vs-capcom-3/68953353
Put simply, if you’re using Violet Fizz in combos, the poison will likely be doing slightly more than 90k.
I’m assuming it’s both the assist and the point version that function like that? That’s pretty crazy.
- You say that as if 236214 shenanigans logically should result in an option-select Hard Drive. The only reason that works at all (outside of the sloppy input windows) is because Sentinel has no other available air super; if he did, instead of the game prioritizing your most recent input, you would be subject to the whims of whatever they had arbitrarily assigned as the higher priority input.
- More importantly, 236 motions have NOTHING to do with what I just proposed. I said that 623 (DP) motions should be cancelled out with an opposite cardinal input, so that you can do 623 moves from walking forward (and of more pressing relevance, 214 moves out of a high block).
Well, yes, in the sense that the sloppy, imprecise, and arbitrary input recognition is at least consistent.
- Nearly every other game with 236/623 motions has separate types of attacks (e.g. punch/kick) so that you don’t have entire movelists with overlapping inputs.
- Allowing 641236 to be recognized as 236 (instead of 623) allows you to both avoid accidental 6236 fireballs AND to be able to do a fireball while walking forward.
"Sloppy input window"s have nothing to do with Option Select Hard Drive.
There’s nothing “shenanigans” about doing 2 inputs in the space of 1 input buffer span, to cover two options.
And yes, “logically”, it should be that way. 214236AtkAtk OS Hard Drive has a tighter executional requirement than a normal hard drive input, and a better result; functionally, it raises the skill ceiling, and it’s existence makes the game better, competitively. It creates a clear scenario in which a skilled player will perform better than an unskilled player.
You can try to downplay it all you want, but the most logical solution to your complaint – from an input registration perspective – would be to have 4 clear previous 6s from the buffer and 6 clear previous 4s from the buffer. In some ways, that would be good; guaranteed methods to do 236 and 214 motions even when you ruined your opportunity to do so at that point with a different input. In some instances, such as the one I mentioned and use, it would not be a good thing. A hybrid solution of “only apply this rule if it would trigger a dragon punch motion” would not only be convoluted, but would still ruin OS Inputs for people that wanted OS DP Inputs, such as Viper players looking to do EX Seismo on wakeup, etc.
At the end of the day, the game has clear rules that can be tested at any time in training mode, and even if you don’t like them – and I think it’s clear to see that you don’t – they’re not going to change. If you get a wrong input because of them, it’s not because of the game. The game didn’t change since yesterday, or ~2012. It’s because you either didn’t understand the game, didn’t hit the right inputs, or didn’t understand and/or respect the limitations of your character. This includes all instances of accidental healing fields and Hawkeye L3s, etc.
Yes, Point Fizz definitely has the same “slight differences that happen if hitstop occurs” properties, etc. All in all, the whole thing’s pretty inconsequential and probably just a minor bug regarding the game tracking poison’s DoT timer, but maybe some hawkeyes were confused about slight damage discrepancies.
Sure there is. The command for Hard Drive is not 214+Atks, and the game holding on to that input (when your most recent input is something else) to allow you to execute a move without knowing which direction to do it is sloppy.
No, it doesn’t; it rewards execution (barely) and reduces strategy. Eliminating choices is literally the entire purpose of option selects.
You know what would really create a clear scenario where skilled players perform better than unskilled player? Actually having to perform the move with correct orientation, based on your opponent’s position. You know, like the other characters that don’t have brain-dead option selects.
So in other words, it would benefit people that are actually trying to do a specific move in a specific direction, while punishing players who would like to input one set of commands and let the game pick for them. This is a tough choice?
The only reason you (as a Sentinel player) are in a position to applaud this dumb design choice is because Sentinel doesn’t have another air super that’s higher on the input priority list. If Sentinel had an air HSF (and it had higher input priority), your favorite trick would be turned against you. Which brings us to Hawkeye and your post I was originally responding to: if this game had more stringent input detection, Hawkeye would be able to respond to random supers during trick shot spam with Super Scatter; instead, that option is removed.
Must be nice to be a Sentinel player and have the sloppy input detection work for you, instead of against you! After all, who wants to try to figure out which direction they need to execute their super, right?
Thanks for explaining that I can’t change the game’s input recognition code.
If you read my post carefully, you might notice that I specifically said the game’s input recognition, if stupid, is at least consistent in its stupidity. That doesn’t make it good, and I don’t accept your argument that the game needs such a dumb input system to better facilitate brainless option selects that value input precision over decision making.
Option selects are something to be avoided, not encouraged. That is, unless you believe games should emphasize input precision over decision-making.
Human Reaction Time is ~7 frames, at best.
Marvel has a natural delay of 4-5 frames. Most games do. X-men vs Street Fighter, my old game alma mater, had a natural delay of 3 frames on CPS-2.
If you’re inhuman, you can do a QCF in 3 frames. Your average high level player is going to do it more along the lines of 5-6 frames, so a margin for error doesn’t ruin the motion.
That’s 16-18 frames, between reacting to something that happens on the screen, to a motion you put in happening. In your completely ridiculous assertation that a Sentinel player “should just do the motion THE RIGHT WAY, GAWD”,
A Sentinel player should be able to identify what side the opponent is on, followed by 7 frames of human reaction time, followed by ~5 frames of inputting the motion, followed by 4-5 frames of game delay, and the opponent should still be on the same side of you, every time.
The game and human play does not work that way. Without the input buffer as it is, there is no way to reliably get a hard drive when the opponent is under you. The OPTION to get a hard drive is taken away, and replaced with a risk/reward scenario where you get a Hard Drive or a jH/jM(which gets you killed in that scenario). Instead, because of the way input works in Marvel, the Sentinel player has a new valid OPTION, an option that requires more execution than alternatives. A game rewarding execution is a GOOD thing. There is no STRATEGY in guessing which side of you your opponent is going to be on in
You never have any idea what you’re talking about, Spider-Dan. There is nothing sloppy about choosing the highest priority attack during the predesignated input buffer window. It’s organized and specific. It works well for the player in some scenarios, such as the one above, and restricts the player in other scenarios, such as the Hawkeye situation.
Maybe if you spent less time crying about it, and Marvel, you’d be able to post something productive such as my Input Buffer and Fizz breakdowns here; frankly, I’m getting tired of correcting you, arguing with you, and bopping you with Point Sentinel when you tried to tell me it was 10-0 Hawkeye.
So basically, you’re saying that you actually have to anticipate what’s going to happen, then input accordingly, instead of memorizing one input and letting the game pick for you. And this is a bad thing?
Have you ever heard of this incredible concept called a crossup? Amazingly, it predates MVC3. And the even more shocking part is that when you are knocked down, depending on the timing the opponent uses, you might have to do your reversal one direction, or a different direction! Yet somehow, CPS2-era players were able to survive by making correct decisions, instead of complaining that the game wouldn’t make the choices for them.
Oh no! You mean instead of pushing your get-out-of-jail-free button, you actually have to make risk-reward decisions? Surely this is an undesirable outcome. Why not just make characters completely invincible on fall-in? Then we can eliminate this strategy-free guessing game altogether.
I notice that you completely failed to address the point about alternative supers and arbitrary developer-assigned input priority. Maybe your argument really is as simple as, “I like it because it benefits me”?
I still await your explanation on why a system that allows you to more accurately execute moves intentionally is worse than a system that relies on developer-assigned input priority overriding your actual input to (hopefully) give you a good move.
Let me repeat this point: 214 is not the CORRECT input for a Hard Drive. Your insistence that this INCORRECT input be allowed to work is an argument that allowing Sentinel to escape from bad situations is more important than making players choose what they want to do.
Sorry, I didn’t know it was you (finally got banned on your other username?), or I would have recognized a self-serving argument earlier. And as long as “bopping with Point Sentinel” = burning XF1 on every match and using TAC/DHC combos to kill Hawkeye with other characters, then sure, you did great. Had I known the goal was simply to burn all resources to make sure Hawkeye is alive when Sentinel dies, I would have played the match differently.
man what is all of this
i was hoping it’d be some sweet hawkeye tech
reveal to me your hawkeye secrets
Well if you have a hitbox you’d do frame Qcf rather easily 
Personally I don’t think I’ve ever really had the inputs mess me up outside of me messing up myself.
I was wondering where everyone stands on their meter usage with hawkeye. I’ve seen some hawkeyes who are very liberal with their use of meter either for Gimlet punishes or for using Super Scatter Shot to push people back. I’ve seen other hawkeyes who are kind of stingy with meter usage too and only use it in certain situations.
for point hawkeye i am firmly in the position of using meter only for scaring them to not do certain things with extreme punishes (via whatever means necessary- burning xf too) and super scatter shots for when they get into the mid-close danger-zone range
the general reasoning is pretty simple: if you can prove that you can make them pay dearly for doing something unsafe vs gimlets when you’re in the 1-2 meter range with hawkeye then suddenly those dudes will be a lot more limited in their actions
if not, then you just make them pay again and again- most of the stuff i punish is pretty reactable and converts into important kills since burning xf is whatever vs a lot of the top tier teams now (zero based ones especially) given that if their comeback starts happening i don’t have many options to stop it with my team (hawkeye/nova/strider) that uses xf specifically
the super scatter shot feels extremely necessary vs a lot of those characters that basically automatically win once they get into the danger range like zero (especially zero!) and he can kind of do it really often so it’s super important to get him away from you or else he can just bully your weak escape options with his dumb bullshit. same with wolv and all those chars that don’t get free ‘ins’ for your super scatter shots (though it’s fun to reaction DHC and kill them if they try to punish it that way, too)
using gimlet->dhc to safe thing as an escape is always an option too at the 2 meter range when they’re in the ‘won’t get hit by super scatter shot’ danger zone
the big thing with point hawkeye is that i feel that you won’t build much meter actually hitting their point character in the zoning game at high level- from my experience, most folks are pretty good about just moving towards you and blocking and getting put in the ol’ zoning loop since they’ll ultimately get many chances to put your entire team in the grave off one touch. however, at the same time most characters(if not all) use assists to break your zoning loop and set up that situation where they can start advancing/pressuring at a more free level (this is usually when i start super scatter shotting them). so your meter gain will be mostly gotten off the small constant gains from chipping away at them and the assist snipes you’ll get vs. doom, dante, mags, whatever their setup assist is. this means that generally you’ll be spending your time in the 1-2 meter range unless you actually hit them into a combo or get some good birthday snipes that aren’t of the 'i can XFC and kill his entire team now" variety
in general i feel the judgement of meter expenditure (idk if i’d quite put it as ‘management’) as hawkeye is extremely important since he very much needs to use his supers to regain the pacing of a match or punish the opponent for many situations
edit: i guess i somehow forgot to add but i am 100% in the club of being super liberal with blowing meter on super scatter shot
edit 2: anchor hawkeye coming back on a full team without xf, try not to burn as much meter as possible (but still punish them with gimlets if it’ll kill them or bring them close to maintain momentum) because if you don’t hit their 3rd char immediately you will need the level 3 to kill them (usually starting from 2 bars) or can really abuse 3-5 bars to zone out their anchor chars with gimlets or scatter shots. for a 2v1 or low point health 3v1 char situation then blow as much meter as possible because they probably still have x-factor and you need to continue momentum against them bc the instant they get theirs started with XFC or just super/THC XFC you’re probably fucked
for content: how do ya’ll feel about using trick M to dodge jumpins as a total emergency move if you’re already too late to be blocking (bc of fired shot or swing already)? i was thinking to maybe use it as an ‘oh god’ kinda deal in those ranges where trick L will still get hit because they’re coming in at an angle that will still cover the flip back? i’ve tried it a bit in training mode and at that angle which is normally a more steep/inside kinda jumpin the M roll dodge -sometimes- works as both an escape and a way to counterhit them on landing frames as a crossunder and a punish for stuff with landing frames (shell kick, zero’s j.h)
I use gimlet to punish air opponents who I know are going to try and DHC like Dooms usually do.
I need to use Super Scatter Shot more as well as it would probably save me from randomly getting hit a few times.
Since I like to play Hawkeye with a character like Deadpool or RR I like to save until 2 bars and then just THC anytime I can punish something with gimlet. For example when Magnetos try to cover missiles with Disrupter I’ll Thc for some great damage.
I actually use Trick M to do a lot of my zoning and cover it with beam or something similar. Especially with beam because if they block the trick shot they are forced to eat a ton of chip damage.
I actually use Slide a lot to get out of situations and then use Trick shot depending on what’s going to happen afterwards. Doing things as Slide xx Trick L to get farther away once I’m under them.
I tend to be fairly stingy with my meter usage. I usually only throw out gimlets when I know it will kill/chip them out. Scatter shots I generally only throw out when I know I fucked up my zoning and need some help. Naturally, it all depends on the matchup, too. I will gladly blow two meters to chip Vergil out, etc.
I just like having the threat of a gimlet all the time. It makes people play quite differently (especially if you still have X-factor to cancel out and follow up with a combo).
That’s why I like to have Wesker 2nd, he doesn’t really need much meter to function. His slot would probably be much better as Doom missiles, but eh, I like Wesker (+unblockables!)
Ayo,
I have some online matches recorded with hawkeye anchor. There’s some great clutch moments and has plenty of hawkeye v. doom tech