I hate democracy. (Rant)

[N_paul]

I think that each state should have only one Senator and about 1/3 the Representatives that are currently in the house. Too many cooks spoil the pot. Too many people making decisions nothing gets done. Also there should be qualification tests that people have to take to be in a position of power. If you are going to make decisions on the economy, maybe you should understand how how the stock market works.

To be quite honest I really don’t think the president is as powerful as people think. All he can do is make pretty speeches and try to convince congress and the senate to go in his direction or just say no with a veto.

Sure he has the power to drop bombs anywhere he wants, but has no magic wand to create jobs.

No, we should just vote for people that know what they’re doing in the first place. NUmber of people is not a problem. There is 1 senator for every 3 million people and 1 rep for every 700,000 people. Shifting the numbers of the 2 houses won’t help.

I tihnk the best thing to do would be change our voting system to something like Australia’s. Not necessarily with the being unable to not vote part, but the instant runoff part. Basically you list who you would want 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. Then the votes are automatically tallied dropping the lowest number each time until it’s down to the last 2 (or technically, if anyone has over 50% at any time). Right now we have districts for our house of reps, but I think it we just did it state-wide with instant runoff we’d get a better result.

I can understand where OP is coming from, we (as a country) don’t turn out to vote and aren’t educated. I think changing voting to allow more parties to compete would raise voter turnout because of less apathy. Politics in this country have been made confusing on purpose, voters don’t have enough control over their reps.

We need better education mostly. I lov how we spend like 75% of our federal budeget on “national defense,” but refuse to do anything about public education and healthcare.

[Javid]

Way to state the obvious Irennicus. I don’t know what you think the solution to all this is(if any), but what do you expect? The vast majority of people don’t give a shit, so long as they are “happy” and things are going well for them. In their ignorance they find solace and they are content with that.

You might as well have started a thread on why you hate the the fact that the sun rises in the East and sets in the West…:xeye:

[OrangeCat]

It’s worst here in Canada. I think a 60% voting turnout for our last election or the election beforehand (but right now we’re getting fucked with minority limbo for either side), and a 40% turnout for local elections. Local elections are the ones that actually affect us far more direction than federal elections and yet here we are bitching away at the feds. People are dumb and it makes me wonder how elections would turn out in North America if we adopted the Ausssie way and make it the law/mandatory to vote.

OC

[Superking]

It’s worst here in Canada. I think a 60% voting turnout for our last election or the election beforehand (but right now we’re getting fucked with minority limbo for either side), and a 40% turnout for local elections. Local elections are the ones that actually affect us far more direction than federal elections and yet here we are bitching away at the feds. People are dumb and it makes me wonder how elections would turn out in North America if we adopted the Ausssie way and make it the law/mandatory to vote.

OC

You tell them OC, that’s how we ended up with the Reptilian Dark Lord running the show up here.

[BEWD]

Not to hijack this thread but exactly where do people get their news/information? I hate to sound like a lazy ass but I do not want to subject myself to a research paper just to stay informed about current events without the bias.

personally I use Al-Jazeera for news, and then there’s Politifact for following politicians and whatnot.

I also used to watch Glenn Beck, I no longer do that. And yet he’s coming up here to my school to speak pretty soon, so that should be fun.

[Pimp_Willy]

I think that each state should have only one Senator and about 1/3 the Representatives that are currently in the house. Too many cooks spoil the pot. Too many people making decisions nothing gets done. Also there should be qualification tests that people have to take to be in a position of power. If you are going to make decisions on the economy, maybe you should understand how how the stock market works.

To be quite honest I really don’t think the president is as powerful as people think. All he can do is make pretty speeches and try to convince congress and the senate to go in his direction or just say no with a veto.

Sure he has the power to drop bombs anywhere he wants, but has no magic wand to create jobs.

Actually, the Senate needs to go. It was implemented as a way to convince the small states to stick around and join the union, by saying “We’ll give you an equal say in matters.” Well sorry, but that just doesn’t fly anymore with how disproportionate the state populations have gotten. Why should Rhode Island or Idaho have the same say as California, New York or Texas?

If you remove the senate, and leave the house, each state gets its proportional say, and we deal with less politicians and bullshit to wade though.

And if the Senate doesn’t go, the ability to stall a bill EVEN THOUGH IT HAS A MAJORITY VOTE needs to go. Being able to filibuster stuff until it can’t pass is a stupid loophole that needs to be closed. With healthcare, for instance, there is enough votes to pass it, just not to get passed the vote to VOTE to pass it. What kind of system allows something like that?

[Okazaki_III]

No it wasn’t sarcastic at all - i meant what I said about reading your posts. It’s easy to notice the poster with the dolphin sex avatar. But I still think your rant is one-sided.

Let’s face it: many americans LOVE how they live. With all their perceived freedoms. And I bet that includes you, no matter how much you rant about the US political/government system that got you this, or helps in sustaining this. As long as they (Americans) stay in this limbo they won’t give a fuck about voting. I don’t mean to paraphrase Javid because he’s already said it. What I’m trying to add to his argument is that you (as in the American general public) won’t genuinely vote for change until the impact of a social condition or symptom is severe enough to move masses of people. Yeah sure you guys have ghetto’s, public housing and more social malices and occasionally nature (Katrina), but none of you live in a dictatorship. Yes healthcare is shit, but you don’t get people dying openly in the streets. Count your blessings man. You could have been born in an Indian slum as a low life nobody eating mud from birth till you die.

People are indeed stupid. SRK GD knows that very well, I’m sure. So it will take something tremendous for the general American public to unstupidify themselves and stop being ignorant towards voting.

Edit: I may sound bitter but I have to admit: I too love the US. Especially NY, Austin and Cali.

[Irennicus]

Way to state the obvious Irennicus. I don’t know what you think the solution to all this is(if any), but what do you expect? The vast majority of people don’t give a shit, so long as they are “happy” and things are going well for them. In their ignorance they find solace and they are content with that.

You might as well have started a thread on why you hate the the fact that the sun rises in the East and sets in the West…:xeye:

If nothing else, I’m glad you found the post obvious.

Either way, something like a faulty government system being bitched about enough might have some impact.

No it wasn’t sarcastic at all - i meant what I said about reading your posts. It’s easy to notice the poster with the dolphin sex avatar. But I still think your rant is one-sided.

Let’s face it: many americans LOVE how they live. With all their perceived freedoms. And I bet that includes you, no matter how much you rant about the US political/government system that got you this, or helps in sustaining this. As long as they (Americans) stay in this limbo they won’t give a fuck about voting. I don’t mean to paraphrase Javid because he’s already said it. What I’m trying to add to his argument is that you (as in the American general public) won’t genuinely vote for change until the impact of a social condition or symptom is severe enough to move masses of people. Yeah sure you guys have ghetto’s, public housing and more social malices and occasionally nature (Katrina), but none of you live in a dictatorship. Yes healthcare is shit, but you don’t get people dying openly in the streets. Count your blessings man. You could have been born in an Indian slum as a low life nobody eating mud from birth till you die.

People are indeed stupid. SRK GD knows that very well, I’m sure. So it will take something tremendous for the general American public to unstupidify themselves and stop being ignorant towards voting.

Edit: I may sound bitter but I have to admit: I too love the US. Especially NY, Austin and Cali.

I absolutely love the freedoms that my country has offered me. Hell if my country were different I wouldn’t be able to post about this at all. I won’t pretend I’ve got a slumdog life or anything.

[Lumbro1]

I’d like to start this off with a question, how many of you vote on a regular basis? Also, ‘every four years’ isn’t a regular basis. If you only vote on the presidential election then frankly I don’t know how you can expect your vote to count in the first place. I ask this because I’d be willing to bet than less than 10% of people in their 20’s vote on congressional, gubenatorial, and other smaller elections.

I like when people think voting gives their arguments more merit or importance over someone equally informed that chooses not to vote.
You are not special.

Call yourself more active in government if you want, but someone who chooses not to participate in a bunch of bullshit has just as much say in whats going on as you do.
Just the fact that you dismiss 90% of american opinions (using your statistic) based on nothing more than arrogance is enough to not take you seriously.

[Irennicus]

I like when people think voting gives their arguments more merit or importance over someone equally informed that chooses not to vote.
You are not special.

Call yourself more active in government if you want, but someone who chooses not to participate in a bunch of bullshit has just as much say in whats going on as you do.
Just the fact that you dismiss the opinions of 90% if the united states (using your statistic) based on nothing more than arrogance is more than enough to not take you seriously.

I didn’t call myself more active in government. I…in fact, you know what, stop fucking shoving words into my mouth and read my post again. Literacy is important.

[thurst]

Actually, the Senate needs to go. It was implemented as a way to convince the small states to stick around and join the union, by saying “We’ll give you an equal say in matters.” Well sorry, but that just doesn’t fly anymore with how disproportionate the state populations have gotten. Why should Rhode Island or Idaho have the same say as California, New York or Texas?

If you remove the senate, and leave the house, each state gets its proportional say, and we deal with less politicians and bullshit to wade though.

And if the Senate doesn’t go, the ability to stall a bill EVEN THOUGH IT HAS A MAJORITY VOTE needs to go. Being able to filibuster stuff until it can’t pass is a stupid loophole that needs to be closed. With healthcare, for instance, there is enough votes to pass it, just not to get passed the vote to VOTE to pass it. What kind of system allows something like that?

exactly. granted the house it’s own problems, but it’s no surprise that the house which is more connected to the people passes bills easier and the senate stalls, adds stupid shit and just generally fucks shit up. it’s way easier for lobbyists and special interest groups to get to 2 senators that are there for 6 years than reps in the house that represent localities and are up for re-election every 2 years.

a big reason with the filibuster is that senators don’t actually have to do it anymore. bakc in the day they’d have to literally stand up in th senate, talking or reading some inane bullshit for hours on end to effectively filibuster, nowadays they just have to make it known that they intend to filibuster and it’s done, shit is stupid. they need to start calling these old dudes’ bluff, make mccain or one of those old fuckers stand up their reading from the dictionary for 3-4 hours and see how the media and everyone reacts and there woulldn’t be anymore fiilbusters.

[cmr2]

My stats

• 30+
• lawyer
• degree in political science
• live and work in Washington DC

You’re talking about something that’s so complex that people spend their careers trying to explain just 1 super thin slice of.

The real problem with democracy is that the other guy always gets a say.

People talk about campaign finance reform. Any place where the government pays people to run for office, they’re really messed up. (see China)

People talk about mandatory voting - that doesn’t change who wins elections. (everybody thinks that their side doesn’t come out to vote)

People talk about education/voter education - go to Europe, where the average citizen is more educated than they are in America (not by much though) - and they often times vote against immigrants and Muslims. If them places was so progressive, they would have done had a Barack, Muhammad, or somebody else running their governments.

People talk about 3rd parties. Holla @ Israel - that system is just as messed up as our own. Those folks got to cut so many deals to keep the coalition together - nobody’s vision really goes uncompromised.

In fact, the democrats are really 3 parties, Blue Dogs, Centrists, and Progressives. The Republicans are made up of the Religious Right, the Libertarians, The Economic conservatives, Paleocons and Neo-cons.

People talk about getting rid of politicians, and letting folks just vote on what they want. They do that in California, referendums (referenda for you grammar nazi’s). You get a whole bunch of folks in the boonies voting against gay marriage and voting against affirmative action in the universities.

The system was designed from the very beginning to

• gridlock
• suppress popular will

The people who started the US, mostly rich white farmers, were scared as hell of poor white farmers. They’d seen in the past, that if you let them vote - all they would do is vote to tax the rich and disperse to the poor. If you look at the Constitution, the Bill of Rights was tacked on LATER.

And those same rich white farmers didn’t trust each other, that’s why we’ve got a house where populations mean something, and a house where it’s cool to just be a member of the club.

In order for anything to work in our system, pretty much most people have to agree. Not just majority rule, but more than half of the folks have to sign on.

You really can’t get away from the fundamental problems of trying to run a society.

The communists take away freedoms.
The socialists take away freedoms on the low.
The dictators and monarchs can be good or bad, but they can’t be stopped, unless by violence.
Anarchy? that kinda describes Afghanistan/Pakistan
Rule by the religious types - I’m not trying to move to Saudi and kick back.

You really can’t win.
The best you can do, is make the best with what you have.

[Rhio2k]

And if the Senate doesn’t go, the ability to stall a bill EVEN THOUGH IT HAS A MAJORITY VOTE needs to go. Being able to filibuster stuff until it can’t pass is a stupid loophole that needs to be closed. With healthcare, for instance, there is enough votes to pass it, just not to get passed the vote to VOTE to pass it. What kind of system allows something like that?

Glad that shit happened. That bill, as it was, would’ve fucked us pretty hard.

[EvilSamurai]

The problem with modern democracy (or should I say, democrazy) is that people have forgotten that power comes from violence. People’s opinions aren’t valid because they exist, but because they are another warm bodies capable of ganging up on a smaller group of people. People have become complacent and no longer wish to be part of the angry mob. They want justice and representation, but they aren’t prepared to lose themselves in a howling fury. People think “Oh, what difference does it make if I participate or not? A couple extra stones won’t bring back that girls virginity”. But its a chain effect, people start thinking people don’t care about stringing up crims and expanding your territory and they stop wielding torches and pitforks, start letting dissenting voices be heard. Then when things get bad they complain about how nobody is willing to take the matters into their own hands. Hypocrites.

/thread. Seriously, people need to realize that they can storm the palace and kill the ruler. Hell if the ruler is that ineffectual, the forces he sends to suppress the masses will join them. This is basically what happened to Ceausescu in Romania. The military joined the protestors, caught the fleeing president, tried, and shot him (and his bitch wife) on live TV on Christmas day.

[HeaT]

i think its about to get worse since now the supreme court passed that shit for major corporations to be able to spend money on campaigns…whats funnier than that is its estimated that like 3 billion will be spent on that shit, really 3 billion when you are laying people off cause you dont have money? but you have money to elect presidents? riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

also, i remember seeing this one time. some chick was asked who she was voting for and she said mccain, but she was held up a picture of mccain and was asked who it was, she didnt know. true story.

im outi

Roberth

[Doc_Holliday]

Democracy isn’t really the problem, it’s the apathetic willfully ignorant citizens.

democracy is just tyranny of the majority. Every 4 years they get to impose their misinformed stupid opinions on a minority. The problem is you simply can’t educate en masse. You only can persuade, and that’s why politicians are so dangerous. People are rationally ignorant, and simply can’t bother with actually learning about the things they support or whatever current politician is proposing. So this creates a vicious cycle of stupidity, which basically never ends.

Yes and Yes. The majority of Americans are stupid. I’ll wait 3 years from now to throw out all the reasons why.

And for what America needs? America needs to start issuing 100 question tests to the general public on who the candidates are and what their views on the issues are before they even get a chance to vote on ANYONE whether it be state or fed level. America needs to up the voting age to 25 because you don’t know shit at 18. Hell, you don’t know shit at 25 but at least there’s more maturity at that age. America needs to allow only people that actually contribute to vote. e.g. people that are actually employed or going to school or serving in the military, etc. instead of sitting around on there asses rooting themselves to their couches.

[Pimp_Willy]

Glad that shit happened. That bill, as it was, would’ve fucked us pretty hard.

Yeah, it’s hillarious to me that neither side liked the bill. One side said it was too radical, the other side said it didn’t accomplish shit. It’s amazing how polarized America is these days. But the point still remains it’s a retarded system.

Also, I disagree with the notion that adding multiple parties doesn’t help anybody. The idea that fiscal conservatism (which doesn’t exist at all right now ironically) must be paired with social conservatism is such a stupid concept for a country to be founded on, theres room for at least 2 more parties just one these 2 metrics alone.

[goodm0urning]

Irennicus has stumbled across one of the less-stated laws of physics: there is no good way to govern a society of this size. None.

Representative, centralized government is totally unfeasible in a nation of 300 million people. I don’t even know if it’s necessary to expound upon that.