I can't believe what I just saw. (Shady Tournament Stuff)

[pherai]

There are plenty of people who could benefit from regional and skill-based seeding besides the top pros, as has already been mentioned in this thread.

I don’t think its been established how a mid tier player benefits from skill based seeding.

[fruityryu]

Also, why is this turning into a discussion about seeding? You guys realize there’s a lot of shady shit that went down and that people are trying to let everyone know:

• NerdJosh clarifying that MvC3 teams LF’s was, in fact, agreed to be 2/3, before it was forced up to 3/5 by Noel (he brought it up after they lost).
• Top 8 on SSF4 (possibly MvC3) had people being floated around with its own participants having a say in the matter
• Justin essentially taking a dive vs Noel on LF’s in a Evo seeded tournament (unless Phoenix on point is a legitimate strategy)
• God knows what else.

[Missing_Person]

I’ll take your word for it. Ive just heard about so many shady things in the smash community, that I thought that kind of shady type of behavior runs rampant in their Tournaments. If that really doesn’t go on, than I would like to take a second and apologize to all the smash players.

It does happen. MLG made sure to point out that that was part of the reason Brawl wasn’t returning next season. Part of it, not all of it, but as soon as M2K got called out on it, everyone knew it was going to happen.

[Durant]

Ok, tell me this. How come top players win consistently? How come the other players don’t win as consistently? Obviously the top players try harder, put more time into this, and play a lot more. The amount of effort put in is shown. Especially when newer players step it up and cause upsets.

Please learn to read and also I hope you know what a bracket looks like. In my hypothetical that doesn’t happen because of seeding by skill, you won’t have every good player on one side of the bracket, and every bad/ok player on the other side. If there was no seeding, it would be possible that the best of the “ok” players will make TOP 3 and make money when they are relatively not that good.

sighs

First off lets remember I am working with YOUR example. I can not help it if you want to bring up a hypothesis which does not help your case too well but anyways…

So what is the point of a tournament? Basically its not to have the best play because we see that gamer A is better than gamer B but gamer B got third place since Gamer A had to fight Gamer D at least by your standards.

My thing is if its seeded from the beginning, this does not need to be done anywhere later on since your top 8 really is your top 8 who kicked everyone’s ass to get there. They have proved themselves. If you need to worry about your top 8 at the finals and replace them (move them), then I think you are doing your tournament wrong because its not your good players making it to the finals.

[GZ-Matthias]

I wonder how many player complaints have become brackets though.

It’s usually only taken care of if it has to do with regional seeding errors that are raised before the tournament can begin.

[AMinorThreat]

Players shouldn’t agree to change tournament rules webster.

[Sixfortyfive]

but if you guys played 2/3 in winners, and I said it should be the same for all finals sets (because that’s what you all agreed on)…then what’s wrong again?

The problem is that winner’s was supposed to be 2/3, but it ended up being 3/5 for some reason. If I’m following all of this correctly, anyway.

[Zeit_Kuppler]

I’ll take your word for it. Ive just heard about so many shady things in the smash community, that I thought that kind of shady type of behavior runs rampant in their Tournaments. If that really doesn’t go on, than I would like to take a second and apologize to all the smash players.

Its alright. The SRK community generally does not like the smash community(mostly because they just hate the game, which is cool its their opinion, but that also leads to no real reason for hating the players as well), so I’m not surprised at all if you heard any weird rumors and what not. But I can assure you, that type of stuff doesn’t run rampant around the community. For the most part, everyone is pretty trustworthy and melee players have to be some of the greatest guys i’ve ever met.

[Joe_The_Condor]

3/5 for teams is just stupid, period. Whoever allows this shit needs to get their heads checked.

[Surenio]

Streams build and strengthen the community. Making them less hype hurts the community.

What’s wrong is that excellent players can be screwed by being randomly assigned to a loaded pool while mediocre ones can get a break by lucking out with a weak one. Now, depending on the payout structure, it might not matter a whole lot where in the brackets the lesser players get knocked out, but the worst case scenario is that all the killers are on one side of the bracket and all the scrubs are on the other side. Why not try to control for that kind of disaster?

Also, as I’ve said, I’m sure there are a lot of players who would not love being matched up against someone they play every day in the first round of the tournament. That’s not a stream-monster concern, it’s a player one.

I simply don’t understand why you think a top player is screwed if he loses early or is randomed out. He should have played better then. End of story. You’re really talking from a spectator point of view at this point.

[Durant]

In a tournament with 4 pools, what happens if it gets arranged randomly and the best 25% of players get put in one pool with the worst 25% in another? A lot of good players go home with no money, and a lot of bad players make it to the finals to get beatdown in a lot of boring, lopsided matches they didn’t deserve to be in.

Yeah, in that case, you can get to top 8 and not be very good, which is why organizers of almost every major tournament imaginable at least take a few measures to make sure that that situation is avoided and everyone either has to go through a known good player or someone else good enough to have beaten one. I can’t believe this conversation is even happening.

Thanks for the explanation but I think with my first post in the thread, I mentioned lack of experience in tournaments and my believe that intervention should come at the beginning of the tournament…

See here

http://shoryuken.com/f2/i-cant-believe-what-i-just-saw-shady-tournament-stuff-272424/index9.html#post10598747

[Fivec]

What the fuck is wrong with you?

Are you even listening to yourself right now?

Boring to watch? I will literally downback for an entire grand finals if that nets me the win, why should ANYONE give a damn for the soulless stream monster brigade or the damned fanboys that came to the tournament?

Jesus fuck I can’t even believe you said that.

If you downback for an entire grand finals for the win, it sounds like you had some really shitty comp at that tourney. Players should care about winning, but TOs are partly concerned with putting on a show, and seeding helps to make a good show.

If you don’t give a fuck about hype, then that’s on you, but if I were a top competitor, I would want all the hype and comp that the community could afford.

[Worm]

I understand regional seeding, they were saying that was based on zip codes, that’s fine those are a objective data point. I don’t quite understand the seeding for this top 8, was it based on subjective opinion or data? I imagine EVO is based on performance in EVO qualifier tournaments (I really don’t know the tourney scene that well honestly), however if all those tournaments are don’t use some kind of objective metric in seeding doesn’t that undermine the seeding in EVO?

I think it’s pretty obvious – given this thread – that there may be a problem with seeding off too many subjective basis.

[Master_Chibi]

If you downback for an entire grand finals for the win, it sounds like you had some really shitty comp at that tourney. Players should care about winning, but TOs are partly concerned with putting on a show, and seeding helps to make a good show.

If you don’t give a fuck about hype, then that’s on you, but if I were a top competitor, I would want all the hype and comp that the community could afford.

Now you’re just being petty with my example.

There’s a difference between hype and entertainment value, and you are flat out confusing the two when the latter has almost never been an issue. A tournament organizer can create hype OUTSIDE of a tournament without the need to fluff and stuff the brackets.

Proof is with Seasons Beatings 5. Exhibition matches, five on five, USA vs Japan, EC vs WC, new versus old, whatever.

If you’re a TO and you change the brackets the way you’re talking about it and for the reasons you’re describing someone should give you a lobotomy and make sure you never run a tournament again because that’s straight up rigging the brackets.

[Fivec]

I don’t think its been established how a mid tier player benefits from skill based seeding.

Yeah, I was mostly thinking of regional-based seeding when I posted that unless the mid-tier players are themselves seeded.

[Pertho]

1: Randomly seeding like a 200-400-man tournament is a terrible idea and just because a computer randomly placed names in brackets doesn’t remotely equate to “fairness”. You’ll just see terrible players placing slightly higher, you’ll create the most godawful, lopsided Top 32 matches you can imagine, and the matches people that would be the best matcups and best entertainment will only happen in pre-arranged special events and MMs. Yeah that sounds great for the scene to grow as a sport, spectator and otherwise.

Tournaments are there to compete. Unless there is a predetermined way you are seeding that is concrete and can be verified to account for no bias, then there is no reason for you to do any type of seeding. Randomly seeding something isn?t even a big deal. Here, have two ways to do with online tools: Dungeons & Dragons Dice Roller , Online Die Roller . If you have a pair of dice, you can seed tournament randomly. This ensures impartiality in competitions. Everybody goes into the tournament knowing that they have the same chance of playing any opponent as any other. If you want to have an open tournament but then turn around and purposely separate popular players from each other. If you want to run your tournament in this way and not have any kind of qualifiers, from a competitive stand point is a shitty idea. The fact that more players don?t feel insulted at this stuff says more about the actual competitive attitude than anything else.

Plus if people flew for $300 round trip to play in your event, let alone everyone is PAYING hard-earned money for a quality event, if you think it’s OK to have them play first round or be in the same pool you’re a jackass. If I were new *or *OG, no way would I ever drive back to an event where I drew someone I play with every week because the TO didn’t believe seeding was “fair”.

This is a cultural issue. All that this reflects is the damn shitty times fighting game players had in fighting other people to play with. On the other hand, now that things are getting bigger and there are more players coming in, its time that this gets addressed for what it is and the tournaments grow up. You and your friends are there to do one job and one job only: Win. If you are not there to win regardless of who you have to play, you are a scrub. Random seeding removes any conversation about fair, or right, or any other adjective you?d like to give the tournament because it?ll be nobody?s decision who you get to play. You are there to win. Seriously, if you don?t think you can beat Justin Wong on round 1, what the fuck is it that you plan on doing if you meeting him later in the brackets? If all goes well for you and your friends, you?ll meet in the finals. Unless, of course, you don?t want your friends to do well and make it that far.
Save both of yourselves a lot of trouble and understand that singles tournaments are SINGLES tournaments. The community is getting to a point where it can start doing this as opposed to seeding the brackets so people could also enjoy the tournament to fulfill the lack of playtime they get

We seed players by SKILL and just not REGION because a TO can and should know who the high tournament placers are, and every tournament is treated like it’s the beginning of the playoffs in a major sport: You seed based on past performance. We collectively have a DETAILED, DOCUMENTED history of past player performances. You don’t have the Lakers playing the Heat in round 1 because you threw all the playoff team names from both conferences in a hat and WHOOPS LOL WELL IT WAS RANDOM SO IT’S FAIR

If Lakers played the Heat round one, it would be the HYPEST thing you?d ever see in your life. Unfortunately basketball works different because it divides itself in 2 conferences and then has teams face each other off in terms of ranking. They have a built in way of determining how those things get seeded; unless you are having qualifiers leading up to your tournament, all you are doing is giving the named players more credence over the rest of them.
If you have detailed documented history of performance, then that means the top 16 (number depending on participants) gets plugged into your calculations as to how to seed. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn?t. The great thing about this is that now with all the streams, do you start taking into account weekly streamed events? How much value do you give those? Things are change for the better but the way of seeding things is still reflective of how small the scene used to be.

If you as a player want to level up, you should WANT to meet a top name to try to beat them, not hope you railroad a bunch of no-names to get a higher placing (in which case no one will care anyway if you didn’t play anyone really good). If low-skill players advanced because the great people eliminated each other in a poorly seeded bracket, I fail to see how this shows who the best players on that day were, and I fail to see why having poor players get farther because of generous seeding makes a tournament better.

This is retarded reasoning. If I want to encourage a player, I?d have him play people of the same caliber as him so he can learn the game. The worst thing you can do to somebody learning a game is have him get shit canned. But unfortunately the way you are choosing to seed, all you do is increase the odds of that shit canning.
Let?s take the game of Go as an example. People of the same rank play each other at tournaments, other tournaments as long as you are a pro player, you can enter and it?s a free for all among the different rankings. All amateur tournaments are randomized for the competitors. These have a clear distinction between amateur and pro. Even more importantly they understand that somebody who has a shitload of experience should not be playing somebody that is brand new; shit they even have a proper way of handicapping players to help in uneven situations during regular games.

If you would like to create a dichotomy between people on streams and the rest of the player base, feel free to do so. But please understand that what you actually do need to do with the way you seed is create different tournaments: one for ?pros? and another one for ?amateurs.?

I can just speak for myself and SB, but it’s pretty easy to seed pools. You take 2-4 players you KNOW have a strong tourney history, place them at opposite ends of the pool, and just fill in the rest, separating players by region. Easy.

See the information above to see why you should be doing things differently.

2: This is not a point about PU because I didn’t see what happened – but AFTER people qualify in their pools, they are qualifying for a NEW bracket (while maintaining who came out of winners AND losers in each pool) for that game. Pool 1 winner does not by SF law absolutely have to play Pool 2 winner in the new Top 32, because the Top 32 can be a NEWly seeded/properly regionalized bracket.

If you randomized the pools properly, there is no reason why you would have to worry about it. But in general I agree with this statement. Taking all the winners of the winners bracket and of the losers, randomizing it and having them play each other works just as well. Although if you are already at the top players, it?s kinda dumb to regionalize things a second time; at one point or another these players need to understand that they will eventually have to play each other.

Of course once that NEW Top 32 or whatever bracket is underway, there is no reason to change it in the middle of it.

Agreed.

Why did I quit yugioh for this shitty fucking community?
I’d rather get my shit stolen, jumped, or have a weapon pulled on me. At least I know my tournaments aren’t rigged and the actual best player wins.

Because YGO as a game sucks an amazing amount of balls; it?s the SF4 of card games. :arazz:

I hear you, but aren’t past tournament results just that? I mean I only wanted to speak for myself, but IMO for TOs that travel to majors themselves, are apart of the community, and read results threads, I think seeding is pretty easy to do as objectively as possible, even for a 400-man tournament. Out here in East Coast/Midwest most of the TOs have been apart of the scene a long time.

Why give yourself worries about being object when you can remove any allegations of it by randomizing? What really needs to happen is a better way for fighting game players to meet each other and play. Online has solved some of the issues but it comes with its own sets of problems.

To people complaining about staff playing games and professionalism: when people helping out with tournies are getting paid because the event is THAT successful, then I see your point. But this is still a community-run scene and the TOs are players too. If they do a poor job in your opinion with their bracket that’s one thing, def speak up about that, but there’s no prob or conflict by letting them in games IMO unless they do something egregiously shady. Don’t just assume some dude doctored your bracket because he played in it if he gives you no cause to think so.

Eh?Because of the frequency of tournaments in this community, the TOs not playing is a bigger missed opportunity that would be a shame to create. Unfortunately the way brackets are run leads to suspicions of them getting some favoritism. But considering that this is a community event, the way the tournaments are being seeded is simply creating a division between tournament players that is unnecessary because we do not have any type of professional league to separate the players. This year?s Evo points are the first step towards that since the last wasn?t so successful.

maybe its because i come from a different tournament environment (Limalama, swordplay, Aikido), but i always found the seeding something silly and unnecesary for a good tournament, yeah it sucks that you end facing a local competitor that you usually play, but it takes a lot of the “fairness” since you are giving a special treatment to the top players, yeah some would argue that this helps to sell the tournament to the expectator, because you are saving the “better” fights to the end, sadly this is a trend that its becoming a rule with everything that caters to the expectator, because it seems more benefitial for a show to have the well known names on the top instead a no name, instead keeping the same rules to everyone involved in the tournament despite their name

THIS. All of SRK needs to put this post in their brains and understand it. Tournaments are not there for stream monsters, they are there for the players.

Are you serious? You want unskilled nobodies to have a better chance at making top 8? Tournaments are supposed to determine the most skilled players, and seeding by known skill is the best way to do that in a double elimination format. I know that there are some local killers who end up getting a raw deal because they aren’t known yet, but if they’re good enough, then they’re still going to win and get their names established in the long run.

Seeding = rigging? Do you keep up with any sports?

All you are doing by seeding is increasing the odds of unskilled nobodies to face people of much better skill. The only way to account for the discrepancy in skill between players would be to have different leagues that they could play in and be able to rank up.
Professional sports separate the elite from the amateur. The seeding that happens during play offs is earned by season play which is completely different than the tournaments in the fighting game community. EVO is barely getting a similar seed system in play. Besides, nobody is making an argument for ?unskilled? nobodies making top 8; the whole issue is giving preferential treatment to players on open tournaments.

Seeding is a trick you can use to ensure more accurate results. Imagine you random seed a tournament and the #2 guy gets a bad bracket. He plays #1 first round and loses. In losers he plays #3, has a bad day, and loses again. He just went 0-2 and finished in last place. The whole point of seeding is to minimize the chances of that happening and give better results overall.

Yeah, you need a decent system to establish the seeds. But this community is still relatively small. If Mike Ross and Marn randomly showed up to one of Michigan’s local events, it’s pretty obvious that you shouldn’t put them up against Wolfkrone and Banana Ken in the first round.

Seeding isn?t fixing anything. All it does is increase the chance of mismatches based on an awkward assessment of player skill. Yes you can seed by who won the last tournaments but all the other spots are just randomly ignored. Once again these are issues that can be solved by properly dividing the player base. But that might kill some of the allure of the way tournaments are set up now which is that everybody competes against everybody.

We play swiss in card games. It’s a much better way of doing tournaments than double elimination. It makes sure nothing stupid like double jeopardy happens, it makes it okay to lose once so you won’t have to worry about seeding, it’s faster, and so much more.

If there is one thing that absolutely needs to happen is never having to hear this community bitch about tie breakers. If randomly seeding a double elimination is this much of a hastle to explain, I definitely to not want to read the barrel of tears that?ll happen when people start drawing into top 8.

Swiss doesn’t work in fighting game tournaments because you can’t run all the matches at the same time. You’d need way more stations than is possible to fit in the venue to run it that way.

In TCGs, you just need 2 seats and a table. That’s why it works.

It could work in the fighting game community but it would require the tournament to be very well run. For the most part it isn?t worth it since it also brings a whole set of issues with it.

[Fivec]

I simply don’t understand why you think a top player is screwed if he loses early or is randomed out. He should have played better then. End of story. You’re really talking from a spectator point of view at this point.

If top 16 or top 8 means something in terms of payout, a top player can be screwed by being forced to player all the other top players early in the brackets (before top 8). Not sure where you’re confused here.

[Surenio]

If top 16 or top 8 means something in terms of payout, a top player can be screwed by being forced to player all the other top players early in the brackets (before top 8). Not sure where you’re confused here.

top player should have NO better chance at that money than anyone else who pays to enter the tournament. The same way a no name can face a top player, a top player can face a top player. It’s as simple as that.

[Minerva_SC]

In a tournament with 4 pools, what happens if it gets arranged randomly and the best 25% of players get put in one pool with the worst 25% in another? A lot of good players go home with no money, and a lot of bad players make it to the finals to get beatdown in a lot of boring, lopsided matches they didn’t deserve to be in.

Yeah, in that case, you can get to top 8 and not be very good, which is why organizers of almost every major tournament imaginable at least take a few measures to make sure that that situation is avoided and everyone either has to go through a known good player or someone else good enough to have beaten one. I can’t believe this conversation is even happening.

Yeah this, I’m in awe people are against seeding. It’s like if goku and vegeta peaced each other out off screen after killing picillo and everyone else and grand finals were between Majin buu and Krillin because krillin got lucky and fought a bunch of cyba men. You’re saying krillin being in said position is A-Ok even though he’s garbage compared to everyone else? How is that fair? Who wants to see that? why leave it to chance?

[Reioumu]

If you downback for an entire grand finals for the win, it sounds like you had some really shitty comp at that tourney. Players should care about winning, but TOs are partly concerned with putting on a show, and seeding helps to make a good show.

If you don’t give a fuck about hype, then that’s on you, but if I were a top competitor, I would want all the hype and comp that the community could afford.

[media=youtube]eMgG9lCMnBk[/media]

And no, top players care about winning to get that $$$