How to make a balanced Dee Jay. Capcom please read!

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
141

Not sure if the good outweighs the bad here.
What’s the new intention of this move?
It’s not AA, less active frames makes it more difficult to space at the cost of it doing more stun.
Hopefully the hitbox on the last 2f is forward enough to help that.
Increasing the width, but not making it hit airborne does nothing for the move theoretically, regardless of which hitbox you’re talking about.

Problems with cr. HK is it gets empty jumped free and gets focus lvl2 from even some of the weaker focus attacks.
I’d take all of this away and leave it alone and make it super cancelable

This move has a giant hurtbox under it which doesn’t allow it to travel low enough to the ground.
Not sure if the hitbox should be expanded or the hurtbox should be removed.
Hurtbox removal could make the LK sobat > knee shot setup not work
Leaving the hurtbox will allow bs normals like cammy and sak cl. hp to AA it when done point blank

Seems like a major buff, maybe even a little OD. Like a low invincible only grounded dp.
If the pushback is next to none of block then i’m all for it.
Also is this just low or mid? If it’s low then this overlaps with the use of LK sobat and is just going to get ppl to cry and get this taken away

This is ridiculous, 4f startup and upper body invincible and all hits juggle. . .is this like a brawl + or some middle ground between omega and ultra?

Really like this change, but damage nerfs are already deejay’s problems. Hopefully the damage buffs given elsewhere truly make me forget about this change.

Also if Deejay is getting this, does that mean dudley is getting a damage nerf to U1? I think it’s ridiculous that character moves around fireballs with ease, but still has an amazing U1 and ridiculous damage on it.

more damage nerfs? the stun on the final hit is kind of pointless imo.
If you’re keeping up with your opponent you’ll never even notice the stun.
If you’re getting mauled, then the stun won’t help because in most of my personal experiences i’d have to combo into U2 and that increases the scaling. Making the stun unscaled would be nice.
10f of recovery isn’t going to do anything. he’s about +3 ish now. +13 wouldn’t give him enough time to do anything besides backdash more safely and maybe throw a fireball instead of backdashing which would get ultra’d or punished by most of the cast.
6f startup isn’t going to do anything for Deejay’s defense and the move is already easy to combo into. Is jab link into ultra your intention? cl. mk into ultra?. A perfectly timed jab from Cody can still meaty deejay for free even with all of the proposed changes.

On paper all of the changes are either too good or lackluster. Haven’t found that sweetspot. Would love to try it out in game so I can make a better evaluation of the changes. The OD changes i’m going to love, but I don’t like fighters where everybody is cheap. They’re fun for me to watch, but not fun for me to play.

If somebody made a PC mod of AE 2012 v2 or something I would pay for that.

142

give deejay an overhead

idc if it’s second hit of st. HK and easy to see

He just needs something to get mofos to stand up and do something besides down back and focus him

also second hit of st. HK needs a bigger horizontal hitbox and less pushback so EX RFA connects

this has been going on since super so fix this stuff pls

143

What I want from Dee Jay:

Lk sobat low and throw invincible again, -4 on block.

Further forward movement on U1, or decreased startup so I can actually get rewarded for a read rather than the opponent’s stupidity.

Dee Jay needs an overhead.

Remove the stupid maracas at the end of U2. I hate the feeling of mixing myself up by having U2 place me right next to the opponent with such a small frame advantage.

A better focus attack.

Better startup on far St. HK.

Second hit of cl. St. HK shouldn’t be whiffing the way it can.

I’d also like to see what would happen if we made MGU the hands command, but I won’t hold my breath.

144

Just some general damage would be nice, all of his standard BnB combos don’t have moderate damage, after looking over all the non-1f BnBs he can deal low 100s for each combo, seems low as hell. If you include his 1fs the damage is moderate, but it’s still a noticeable issue he has. He’s the worst from a generally well balanced game, and it wouldn’t take much to make DeeJay a strong mid tier character, he’s just missing a few bits and pieces. Albeit the pieces he’s missing are rather important…

That video highlights some things that happen to me in matches on a near daily basis. Frustrates me to no end. Jump-in MK > x2 cr.lp > EX MGU can also have U2 whiff, which just feels ridiculous.

145

You gotta do jump in mk, cr.lp, cr.mp, EX MGU and dash U2 will connect. cr.mp moves him forward.

146

Woah, saying that actually kinda hurt. The goal of our mod is too make everyone strong, none of these changes are too good at all unless you started with SF4’s cast of mediocre characters. FYI ALL Ultras are getting damage nerfs in exchange for better utility. I’m not sure what changes of mine are lackluster really, all of them have been thought through to fix a hole in his gameplan and/or make him better where he already shines.

Slide change is something I noticed most of the people here either didn’t understand or thought was a bad change, but I am here to tell you that it is actually one of his BEST changes by far. The reduced startup/active frames and increased forward movement allow him to have a fast and far moving low attack which gains space quickly while allowing him to maintain charge. It is MUCH better as an anti air since it is a lot harder to beat/trade/empty jump (better hitbox and further movement really help here), it is just harder to time now because then there would be no reason to use his other AA normals.

Knee Shot is keeping the hurtbox so that it can still be beaten, a reduced hurtbox would make it a ghetto divekick which is something I wanted to avoid. The bigger hitbox is just so that it hits crouching characters more consistently and is harder to low profile. EDIT: Just realized were you talking about the hurtbox or pushbox? I can tweak the pushbox so that it no longer goes all the way down to his non attacking knee that is extended, instead it can be moved up to his attacking legs ankle and just expanded forward so it can still probably be used for setups.

I setup the hurtbox for MGU to start around his waist, but it is supposed to be used differently than LK Sobat. LP MGU has no forward movement and has a faster startup than LK Sobat, so it is basically only there to be used on wakeup. It is -6F on block which means it is punishable by every character on block, and since it can’t be mashed anymore there isn’t much pushback on it. This is why I chose to not buff his backdash very much, because I didn’t want him to have too good of a wakeup since his neutral got buffed so much.

MP MGU buff isn’t ridiculous, it’s just people shouldn’t be jumping on a charged Deejay. Weak anti airs is something that has plagued the SF4 series almost since release, our team has decided to make them much better hitbox and damage wise to make jumping a genuine risk.

Ultras are getting damage nerfs for pretty much every character so Deejay is no exception. However, I just wanted to say that Deejay U1 getting a damage nerf wouldn’t automatically warrant a nerf for Dudley U1 (even though Dudley U1 IS definitely getting nerfed). You have to look at the big picture for all of the things that Deejay has that would make it dumber for him to have a way around projectiles than Dudley.

Climax beat stun buff has already been removed if you look at my further posts. Faster startup is there so it can combo from cr.LP as a 1F link, able to punish a lot more things on hit/block, and function easier as an anti air. +10F of advantage is pretty significant on a knockdown, I’m almost positive there will be a setup or two that is possible thanks to this change.

I am really curious at how most of these changes are “lackluster” though, since a majority of people thought my final revised changelist was quite good. He has better damage, faster charge time, more mobility, better projectile, way better footsies and anti airs, better focus attack, better ultras, and most of all more FUN.

Also wanted to make it clear that I’m not trying to come across as a dick, I just want to know what can really be considered lackluster. I really felt like I gave him everything he needed, except for an overhead which I won’t add unless we decided to add a universal overhead system.

147

I think a big thing of this, more so with the you swearing that you gave him the things he needs is that you can test it. I’m assuming you’re implementing these things in the game to make sure they’re balanced before deciding they’re final changes. We can’t see that stuff, so all we can do is speculate based on what we know or what we believe. Once we get a chance to try it there will probably be a lot more feedback, both positive and negative.

As a side note, I noticed you mention MP MGU as an anti-air…Does that work now? I don’t really see a reason to that when L and M upkicks still have their purpose and the various buffs you gave much earlier.

148

I said the cr. HK wasn’t a good idea because you describe the first 4 active frame as not being able to hit AA, giving it a 2f window to AA. Maybe i’m not quite understanding what you’re saying here.

i’ll post a pic of the knee shot thing i was talking about

Deejay has LK upkicks to deal with jumps. that MP MGU buff is highly unnecessary. yeah it’s cool, but he already has all versions of upkicks excluding HK to AA when having down charge. His AA with charge game is the only thing he didn’t need touched. His normal AA game is really weak or too specific.

Dudley doesn’t have to deal with projectiles at all. You can’t even chip him on wake up with a fireball unless you do it far enough that you can also punish the duck. Dudley is one of the characters that really shows how weak the fireball zoning game is in the game along with Blanka, Guy and Abel. Dudley i named specifically because he gets around fireballs under any condition and once he gets U1 you can’t throw them. You could barely throw them before hand on any dudley worth his salt. So on top of not being to throw fireballs at all he has a U1 that seems to hit 4/5ths of the screen. Better AA damage than any zoning outside of maybe gouken and maybe poison because of her tall fireball. All I’m saying is reevaluate your dud deejay statement.

10f doesn’t change much unless you take the maracas out. if you jump with the 13 frames you’ll get beat by almost any dp theoretically. 4f prejump and you’ll still be rising at the top of an instant knee shot at best.

I like my fighting games as well as my characters on the stale side. Rewarding me not for creativity, but for solid play and maybe some innovation.
Deejay was exactly that until I realized he had no wake up.

Don’t be offended, i’m generally unimpressed with 95% of what i read or hear about this game. I use the fundamentals to break everything down and it instantly becomes simple. Like a magician watching another magician. Able to see through what most can’t.

Lackluster
far HP
no reduction in recovery, adjusting the hurtbox/hitbox is more of a fix. nothing crazy there. will it launch crouchers?
make it always juggle and do less damage. Currently, if you get a crumple in backdash, you don’t get shit unless you’re ready with back charge. Specific scenario, but HP always juggle airborne with less damage would solve that.

far mk
ok change, but still would be only get one hit if you land the first active frame in footsies. no hurtbox adjustment noted.

far hk
1f reduction does nothing in my mind. 1f reduction still means it’s horizontal at 11f. still ass on block, still ass hurtbox, still only good for empty jump reads. Might be able to throw it out to blow up crouch techs with a slow frame trap like slim does, but 1f isn’t going to make that trap that much better either

ex air slasher
2f does nothing for me. the move i only really use in blockstrings, but i only get away with it because ppl don’t know it’s not a true blockstring with any of my normals. regular airslasher now has the same frame data so it’s utility is still limited. ass corner combos with all that scaling. the 2f might help with links into U1.

ex sobat strike invincibility removal also makes him free to adon and abel. Which one of your changes do i have to give up to get that back?

149

If I may, I’d like to add that far HK also is pretty bad on normal hit. I’m almost sure it’s the only ranged normal of its kind that isn’t at least even on hit. Basically if you don’t a counter hit, you get destroyed on block and some character might be able to punish you on hit depending on the spacing.

150

Blanka’s cr.hp is -4 on hit(though usually -3). Similar usage, but blanka’s cr.hp is better obviously.

SF4 has a lot of of terrible recovery heavy normals which is pretty bleh with the focus system.

151

I know, it’s just having to perform a 1f before doing the Dash U2 makes me choke on linking the cr.mp properly. Choke city ahoy.

152

generally SF4 gives AA normals disadvantage on hit. the thing with Far HK it’s only good in the gief match at very specific ranges and loses to any solid jump in because of the beefy hurtbox above the leg on the 2 active frame and on.

also there’s a nice gap where it doesn’t hit. Hits about 80-85 degrees and then 0-10 degrees. needs 1 new hitbox in the animation at about 45 degrees imo.

should hit like a fan a la honda st. hp, hakan st. hp. would help with AA and on the ground.

153

Other than is some specific matchups like Hugo, I’ve never considered far HK as an anti air. But I mean even you take it as an anti air Honda st.HP, Hakan st.HP, Guile st.MK/st.HP/f.HP, Cody far HK/far HP, Chun-Li far MK/far HK/far HP, Viper far HK, Akuma far HP, Zangief far HK, Yun far MK, Yang far MK, Oni st.MK, Sagat far HK, Bison st.HK, Guy far HK, and Rolento st.HK I think are all positive or at least even on hit. Mind you I was just trying to compare with other standing ranged normals that I’d think would be used in similar situations (and I don’t how accurate the wiki’s frame data is).

154

Alright I’ve tweaked Far HK to be a bit better, but before that I wanted to let you know that I initially reduced the recovery on far HK by 5F, so it is now ±0F/-4F on hit/block, which is wayyyy better than what it was before. Here are the added changes to far HK and some more changes that are final (for now)

Far MK
-Active frames increased from 23>33
-Now moves slightly forward during startup
-Pushback slightly reduced on 1st hit
-Hitbox expanded to end of foot for 2nd hit
-Damage changed from 5060>7040
-Stun changed from 50100>7575

Far HK
-Repositioned hitbox on active frame 3 to hit more vertically
-Hitbox on active frame 4 increased in width dramatically
-Hurtbox during active frames 3~4F reduced in width significantly and height slightly
-Damage increased from 110>120

Crouch HK
-Juggles higher against airborne on active frames 5~6

NEW MOVE: back+HP activates cl.MP at any range
-Very slightly reduced vertical hitbox
-Damage increased from 70>80

Far HP
-Recovery reduced from 23F>17F
-Adds no juggle points if used as the first hit of a combo
-Launches crouching characters on CH
-Launches airborne opponents without CH on active frame 1 only

Climax Beat
-Recovery reduced by 17F (including the previous 10F reduction)

Far MK should be pretty godlike now that it is much more likely for both hits to land, probably will get some new combos out of it as well.

Listened to the problems with Far HK, I tried making it a good tool without going too overboard. I want Deejay to have usable anti airs but I don’t think they should be too good especially with his new ground control.

Crouch HK buff is so you get more rewarded for the anti air since it is now harder to time. Also means you can do new stuff from FA crumple.

New cl.MP command normal helps him in his deadzone area.

Made Far HP much safer with 6F less recovery so you can use it more often to fish for CH combos (which are also more rewarding thanks to more juggle options). The 1F launch from a non CH is specifically for FA crumple combos, since like I said I didn’t want his AA game to be too strong.

I know what you are describing for Knee Shot, but what I’m saying is I can tweak the pushbox without affecting the hurtbox. It is never getting a smaller hurtbox because then it will be a ghetto divekick, and this game doesn’t need any less of those.

I’m sorry but we are trying to make this game as fun as possible with characters that are pretty strong. If you don’t like that, then this mod isn’t for you haha.

155

b HP bothers me.

increasing the hitbox size or making any adjustment to far HP seems useless now.

if i happen to get a launch now i can only follow with HK because if i do b. HP i’ll get cl. mp.

i suggest taking that out or giving that to f. mp or hp.

frame data change won’t hurt that move currently it’s -2/+1 I believe?

maybe make it PPP instead?

strong =/= silly

What’s your standard? What character is your standard? any benchmarks?

If you don’t have any answers for that, then it sounds like something inbetween ultra and omega.

All i’m saying is 2012 was the best version. 2012 v2 would be worth me getting back on PC.

in the smash community there are 3 variations that I was aware of

vanilla brawl
brawl+ : rebalanced, made every character strong, but still had some really obnoxious top tiers. Every character was viable, but sometimes the top tier simple shit could overpower some of the more mild characters
brawl- : silly, everything is supposed to be ridiculous. least favorite. If i wanted a silly fighter, i’d turn items on or something else. i like structure and order.
balanced brawl: a rebalance of brawl. Nothing too over the top just created a bigger middle class.

Which of these are you aiming at? Too me some of the deejay stuff sounded inbetween plus and minus, but leaning towards minus. IF that’s the aim, i’ll stop responding because I won’t bother playing it so I won’t flood the post with my opinion.

156

I don’t understand how I’m giving him silly changes? Please explain this one to me as you don’t sugar coat anything, it’s hard for me to read your posts without wanting to respond like a dick lol.

Like I said, the goal is to make everyone strong and fun without going too over the top. Our overall goal is to make the game less bland without going Omega mode with silliness and stupidity. You said you like games where things are bland and you aren’t rewarded for creativity, and that just translates to me as boring tbh. I’m assuming you mean something else with that statement, but I don’t really understand.

We aren’t doing the whole “balance around Ryu” thing, we are implementing changes (system and character) to make the game reward you less for playing dumb so that skill and patience is required to win. Here are a few of the system wide changes that we have agreed on, so that you may get a feel about what our goals are:

Metergain on whiff added for normals Mids +5 Heavies +8 Metergain on hit/block for normals adjusted Lights On hit 20 -> 15 Mids on hit 40 -> 30 Heavies 60 -> 50 Opponents gain 33% meter on hit/block. Attacker still gains 50%. Pushback on hit/block for lights increased from 0.3 to 0.4.

LV1 Focus no longer causes crumple on CH, instead causes increased hitstun (+6F on hit for characters with 18F dash)

LV2 FA charge time increased from 18F->23F; blockstun reduced by 2F.

All hit animations hardcoded so that different reeling animations never randomly occur.

All hit animations have manually designated hurtboxes so that everything is more consistent.

Anti airs are getting damage/hitbox buffs across the board.

Ultras are getting damage nerfs in exchange for utility.

Zoning and projectiles are getting buffed

Projectile invincible moves are getting nerfed foe the most part.

Overall damage increase for all characters.

Sweeps cause knockdowns that are in between HKD and SKD.

Crouch tech attempts always activates stand throw with 5F extra recovery.

Throws have farther range, harder to tech, and do more damage/stun; however, they no longer give the attacker so much momentum thanks to less frame advantage.

We are contemplating over adding universal overheads.

So if you like updates that only do tiny little frame data and hitbox tweaks, then this mod IS NOT for you. If you like updates with unique changes, stronger characters, larger emphasis on fundamentals, and faster pace without getting stupid, then this mod IS for you.

Again, I’m not trying to be an asshat, but I just want to know how my changes are first lackluster and now silly.

157

Respond like a dick if you have to. I don’t take things personal. This is the internet.

mp MGU AA and juggle is silly.

don’t change lvl2 FA universally. That was a big complaint around vanilla because focus attacks were slower and not used as much. If your change is in the middle then go for it, but i’d recommend just adjusting a few characters.

I think SF4 would generally benefit from more stun overall. It helps bad matchups and promotes offense.

It’s a combination of lackluster and silly. Nothing really innovative.

Meter gain on whiff is not a good idea imo, but your game not mine. Meter gain on whiff promotes bad meter management, i guess a small amount of meter offsets this.

Deejay was originally designed to be an all around character. Something like a charge ryu. He’s supposed to be on the staler side of things. It’s part of who he is.

sobat focus animation actually doesn’t help either. he needs a range buff and maybe a slightly lower hitbox.

Less pushback on heavies so he can RFA lvl1

Something to give him damage when he has no charge. He has nothing without charge besides maybe single normal or cl. mk cr. mk.

lvl1 focus no longer causes crumple? that was a great addition to SF4 and you want to take it out?

I just think our ideology is too different. I also think your understanding of Deejay is my biggest issue. Small changes go a long way with Deejay, that goes for the good or the bad.

It’s a combination of lackluster and silly. I feel like your group doesn’t understand the game.

If you’re going to make fireballs better, make them harder to empty jump. They get empty jumped for free by almost everybody except a few.

Also games not balanced around a benchmark get crazy and it makes it harder to decide what’s fair and not fair in your mod. Some changes can be seen as arbitrary. Is there a place where I can see changes to other characters? Maybe your changes to Deejay were necessary to the whole cast and not just to Deejay as a stand alone character.

158

So with presumably one more balance update to this game on the way in 2015, do you think that Capcom will actually do anything to make Dee Jay better?

Honestly, I don’t see Dee Jay improving whatsoever, and if he does manage to crawl out of bottom-tier, it will be because of nerfs to other characters.

159

I am trying to remain positive thru all of this. There has been more DeeJay exposure showing the struggle at it’s finest. Plus he was one of the three characters they were keeping a special eye on.

Please capcom deliver the goods.

160

Capcom isn’t going to make sweeping changes to DJ. At best they will be minor tweaks. These dream lists are great and all but they’ll never be implemented and at best we’ll just end up in a circle jerk over potentially awesome changes.

He needs his low invul back on LK sobat. I don’t think -3 on block is that game breaking when it puts DJ at frame disadvantage and at a range where DJ has no real options against any poke practically any character cares to stick out after blocking the LK sobat.

He needs a reversal to counter low profile pressure during knockdowns and resets, where he is overwhelmingly free. I don’t think there are any other characters basically free to pressure in that sense. They all have an option, even if its just a method of escape rather than a crummy reversal. They need to revert some of the changes on his EX MGU, or tweak it in a more sensible fashion. Being able to push someone out during pressure was at least an option. You wasted a bar to be safe on block. Is that so evil?

There are other issues of course. He has an obnoxious anti air dead zone just outside of the typical crossup jump range. His throw range and focus range are abysmal. His knee shot and medium kick both lack block stun and basically force you into a 50/50 after a blocked jump in. His backdash is unreliable.

In addition to reverting changes to LK.Sobat and EX.MGU, he needs his st.hk to start up much faster and have its hitbox modified to cover DJ’s AA dead zone. His throw and focus ranges need some tender loving. His jump attacks need block stun and his backdash needs to lose some frames. But even those changes are pipe dreams. Didn’t even mention enemies falling out of Ultra 1, Super, and Sobat attacks, or St.MP being unreliable/impossible to link against standing shotos and whiffing on crouching targets. Didn’t even mention whatever the fuck Cl.HP is supposed to be, or his complete lack of use for EX Red Focus. No mention of U2 whiffing on a few characters. I’m probably missing a lot. Some of those issues wouldn’t be so bad if we weren’t free to low profile.

Yet I still play him and I don’t know why. He’s a cool character, but he has so many issues it’s hard to keep smiling. I just don’t know what kind of super-japan crackrock Capcom was smoking with the nerfs in Ultra. I like to dabble in ST as of late and DJ there is pretty awesome even if I am personally ass at ST against these GGPO go-hards. Having that low invul on LK Sobat makes me feel like a moron for suggesting that it’s not a necessary part of his toolset.