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I think a big thing of this, more so with the you swearing that you gave him the things he needs is that you can test it. I’m assuming you’re implementing these things in the game to make sure they’re balanced before deciding they’re final changes. We can’t see that stuff, so all we can do is speculate based on what we know or what we believe. Once we get a chance to try it there will probably be a lot more feedback, both positive and negative.

As a side note, I noticed you mention MP MGU as an anti-air…Does that work now? I don’t really see a reason to that when L and M upkicks still have their purpose and the various buffs you gave much earlier.

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I said the cr. HK wasn’t a good idea because you describe the first 4 active frame as not being able to hit AA, giving it a 2f window to AA. Maybe i’m not quite understanding what you’re saying here.

i’ll post a pic of the knee shot thing i was talking about

Deejay has LK upkicks to deal with jumps. that MP MGU buff is highly unnecessary. yeah it’s cool, but he already has all versions of upkicks excluding HK to AA when having down charge. His AA with charge game is the only thing he didn’t need touched. His normal AA game is really weak or too specific.

Dudley doesn’t have to deal with projectiles at all. You can’t even chip him on wake up with a fireball unless you do it far enough that you can also punish the duck. Dudley is one of the characters that really shows how weak the fireball zoning game is in the game along with Blanka, Guy and Abel. Dudley i named specifically because he gets around fireballs under any condition and once he gets U1 you can’t throw them. You could barely throw them before hand on any dudley worth his salt. So on top of not being to throw fireballs at all he has a U1 that seems to hit 4/5ths of the screen. Better AA damage than any zoning outside of maybe gouken and maybe poison because of her tall fireball. All I’m saying is reevaluate your dud deejay statement.

10f doesn’t change much unless you take the maracas out. if you jump with the 13 frames you’ll get beat by almost any dp theoretically. 4f prejump and you’ll still be rising at the top of an instant knee shot at best.

I like my fighting games as well as my characters on the stale side. Rewarding me not for creativity, but for solid play and maybe some innovation.
Deejay was exactly that until I realized he had no wake up.

Don’t be offended, i’m generally unimpressed with 95% of what i read or hear about this game. I use the fundamentals to break everything down and it instantly becomes simple. Like a magician watching another magician. Able to see through what most can’t.

Lackluster
far HP
no reduction in recovery, adjusting the hurtbox/hitbox is more of a fix. nothing crazy there. will it launch crouchers?
make it always juggle and do less damage. Currently, if you get a crumple in backdash, you don’t get shit unless you’re ready with back charge. Specific scenario, but HP always juggle airborne with less damage would solve that.

far mk
ok change, but still would be only get one hit if you land the first active frame in footsies. no hurtbox adjustment noted.

far hk
1f reduction does nothing in my mind. 1f reduction still means it’s horizontal at 11f. still ass on block, still ass hurtbox, still only good for empty jump reads. Might be able to throw it out to blow up crouch techs with a slow frame trap like slim does, but 1f isn’t going to make that trap that much better either

ex air slasher
2f does nothing for me. the move i only really use in blockstrings, but i only get away with it because ppl don’t know it’s not a true blockstring with any of my normals. regular airslasher now has the same frame data so it’s utility is still limited. ass corner combos with all that scaling. the 2f might help with links into U1.

ex sobat strike invincibility removal also makes him free to adon and abel. Which one of your changes do i have to give up to get that back?

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If I may, I’d like to add that far HK also is pretty bad on normal hit. I’m almost sure it’s the only ranged normal of its kind that isn’t at least even on hit. Basically if you don’t a counter hit, you get destroyed on block and some character might be able to punish you on hit depending on the spacing.

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Blanka’s cr.hp is -4 on hit(though usually -3). Similar usage, but blanka’s cr.hp is better obviously.

SF4 has a lot of of terrible recovery heavy normals which is pretty bleh with the focus system.

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I know, it’s just having to perform a 1f before doing the Dash U2 makes me choke on linking the cr.mp properly. Choke city ahoy.

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generally SF4 gives AA normals disadvantage on hit. the thing with Far HK it’s only good in the gief match at very specific ranges and loses to any solid jump in because of the beefy hurtbox above the leg on the 2 active frame and on.

also there’s a nice gap where it doesn’t hit. Hits about 80-85 degrees and then 0-10 degrees. needs 1 new hitbox in the animation at about 45 degrees imo.

should hit like a fan a la honda st. hp, hakan st. hp. would help with AA and on the ground.

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Other than is some specific matchups like Hugo, I’ve never considered far HK as an anti air. But I mean even you take it as an anti air Honda st.HP, Hakan st.HP, Guile st.MK/st.HP/f.HP, Cody far HK/far HP, Chun-Li far MK/far HK/far HP, Viper far HK, Akuma far HP, Zangief far HK, Yun far MK, Yang far MK, Oni st.MK, Sagat far HK, Bison st.HK, Guy far HK, and Rolento st.HK I think are all positive or at least even on hit. Mind you I was just trying to compare with other standing ranged normals that I’d think would be used in similar situations (and I don’t how accurate the wiki’s frame data is).

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Alright I’ve tweaked Far HK to be a bit better, but before that I wanted to let you know that I initially reduced the recovery on far HK by 5F, so it is now ±0F/-4F on hit/block, which is wayyyy better than what it was before. Here are the added changes to far HK and some more changes that are final (for now)

Far MK
-Active frames increased from 23>33
-Now moves slightly forward during startup
-Pushback slightly reduced on 1st hit
-Hitbox expanded to end of foot for 2nd hit
-Damage changed from 5060>7040
-Stun changed from 50100>7575

Far HK
-Repositioned hitbox on active frame 3 to hit more vertically
-Hitbox on active frame 4 increased in width dramatically
-Hurtbox during active frames 3~4F reduced in width significantly and height slightly
-Damage increased from 110>120

Crouch HK
-Juggles higher against airborne on active frames 5~6

NEW MOVE: back+HP activates cl.MP at any range
-Very slightly reduced vertical hitbox
-Damage increased from 70>80

Far HP
-Recovery reduced from 23F>17F
-Adds no juggle points if used as the first hit of a combo
-Launches crouching characters on CH
-Launches airborne opponents without CH on active frame 1 only

Climax Beat
-Recovery reduced by 17F (including the previous 10F reduction)

Far MK should be pretty godlike now that it is much more likely for both hits to land, probably will get some new combos out of it as well.

Listened to the problems with Far HK, I tried making it a good tool without going too overboard. I want Deejay to have usable anti airs but I don’t think they should be too good especially with his new ground control.

Crouch HK buff is so you get more rewarded for the anti air since it is now harder to time. Also means you can do new stuff from FA crumple.

New cl.MP command normal helps him in his deadzone area.

Made Far HP much safer with 6F less recovery so you can use it more often to fish for CH combos (which are also more rewarding thanks to more juggle options). The 1F launch from a non CH is specifically for FA crumple combos, since like I said I didn’t want his AA game to be too strong.

I know what you are describing for Knee Shot, but what I’m saying is I can tweak the pushbox without affecting the hurtbox. It is never getting a smaller hurtbox because then it will be a ghetto divekick, and this game doesn’t need any less of those.

I’m sorry but we are trying to make this game as fun as possible with characters that are pretty strong. If you don’t like that, then this mod isn’t for you haha.

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b HP bothers me.

increasing the hitbox size or making any adjustment to far HP seems useless now.

if i happen to get a launch now i can only follow with HK because if i do b. HP i’ll get cl. mp.

i suggest taking that out or giving that to f. mp or hp.

frame data change won’t hurt that move currently it’s -2/+1 I believe?

maybe make it PPP instead?

strong =/= silly

What’s your standard? What character is your standard? any benchmarks?

If you don’t have any answers for that, then it sounds like something inbetween ultra and omega.

All i’m saying is 2012 was the best version. 2012 v2 would be worth me getting back on PC.

in the smash community there are 3 variations that I was aware of

vanilla brawl
brawl+ : rebalanced, made every character strong, but still had some really obnoxious top tiers. Every character was viable, but sometimes the top tier simple shit could overpower some of the more mild characters
brawl- : silly, everything is supposed to be ridiculous. least favorite. If i wanted a silly fighter, i’d turn items on or something else. i like structure and order.
balanced brawl: a rebalance of brawl. Nothing too over the top just created a bigger middle class.

Which of these are you aiming at? Too me some of the deejay stuff sounded inbetween plus and minus, but leaning towards minus. IF that’s the aim, i’ll stop responding because I won’t bother playing it so I won’t flood the post with my opinion.

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I don’t understand how I’m giving him silly changes? Please explain this one to me as you don’t sugar coat anything, it’s hard for me to read your posts without wanting to respond like a dick lol.

Like I said, the goal is to make everyone strong and fun without going too over the top. Our overall goal is to make the game less bland without going Omega mode with silliness and stupidity. You said you like games where things are bland and you aren’t rewarded for creativity, and that just translates to me as boring tbh. I’m assuming you mean something else with that statement, but I don’t really understand.

We aren’t doing the whole “balance around Ryu” thing, we are implementing changes (system and character) to make the game reward you less for playing dumb so that skill and patience is required to win. Here are a few of the system wide changes that we have agreed on, so that you may get a feel about what our goals are:

Metergain on whiff added for normals Mids +5 Heavies +8 Metergain on hit/block for normals adjusted Lights On hit 20 -> 15 Mids on hit 40 -> 30 Heavies 60 -> 50 Opponents gain 33% meter on hit/block. Attacker still gains 50%. Pushback on hit/block for lights increased from 0.3 to 0.4.

LV1 Focus no longer causes crumple on CH, instead causes increased hitstun (+6F on hit for characters with 18F dash)

LV2 FA charge time increased from 18F->23F; blockstun reduced by 2F.

All hit animations hardcoded so that different reeling animations never randomly occur.

All hit animations have manually designated hurtboxes so that everything is more consistent.

Anti airs are getting damage/hitbox buffs across the board.

Ultras are getting damage nerfs in exchange for utility.

Zoning and projectiles are getting buffed

Projectile invincible moves are getting nerfed foe the most part.

Overall damage increase for all characters.

Sweeps cause knockdowns that are in between HKD and SKD.

Crouch tech attempts always activates stand throw with 5F extra recovery.

Throws have farther range, harder to tech, and do more damage/stun; however, they no longer give the attacker so much momentum thanks to less frame advantage.

We are contemplating over adding universal overheads.

So if you like updates that only do tiny little frame data and hitbox tweaks, then this mod IS NOT for you. If you like updates with unique changes, stronger characters, larger emphasis on fundamentals, and faster pace without getting stupid, then this mod IS for you.

Again, I’m not trying to be an asshat, but I just want to know how my changes are first lackluster and now silly.

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Respond like a dick if you have to. I don’t take things personal. This is the internet.

mp MGU AA and juggle is silly.

don’t change lvl2 FA universally. That was a big complaint around vanilla because focus attacks were slower and not used as much. If your change is in the middle then go for it, but i’d recommend just adjusting a few characters.

I think SF4 would generally benefit from more stun overall. It helps bad matchups and promotes offense.

It’s a combination of lackluster and silly. Nothing really innovative.

Meter gain on whiff is not a good idea imo, but your game not mine. Meter gain on whiff promotes bad meter management, i guess a small amount of meter offsets this.

Deejay was originally designed to be an all around character. Something like a charge ryu. He’s supposed to be on the staler side of things. It’s part of who he is.

sobat focus animation actually doesn’t help either. he needs a range buff and maybe a slightly lower hitbox.

Less pushback on heavies so he can RFA lvl1

Something to give him damage when he has no charge. He has nothing without charge besides maybe single normal or cl. mk cr. mk.

lvl1 focus no longer causes crumple? that was a great addition to SF4 and you want to take it out?

I just think our ideology is too different. I also think your understanding of Deejay is my biggest issue. Small changes go a long way with Deejay, that goes for the good or the bad.

It’s a combination of lackluster and silly. I feel like your group doesn’t understand the game.

If you’re going to make fireballs better, make them harder to empty jump. They get empty jumped for free by almost everybody except a few.

Also games not balanced around a benchmark get crazy and it makes it harder to decide what’s fair and not fair in your mod. Some changes can be seen as arbitrary. Is there a place where I can see changes to other characters? Maybe your changes to Deejay were necessary to the whole cast and not just to Deejay as a stand alone character.

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So with presumably one more balance update to this game on the way in 2015, do you think that Capcom will actually do anything to make Dee Jay better?

Honestly, I don’t see Dee Jay improving whatsoever, and if he does manage to crawl out of bottom-tier, it will be because of nerfs to other characters.

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I am trying to remain positive thru all of this. There has been more DeeJay exposure showing the struggle at it’s finest. Plus he was one of the three characters they were keeping a special eye on.

Please capcom deliver the goods.

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Capcom isn’t going to make sweeping changes to DJ. At best they will be minor tweaks. These dream lists are great and all but they’ll never be implemented and at best we’ll just end up in a circle jerk over potentially awesome changes.

He needs his low invul back on LK sobat. I don’t think -3 on block is that game breaking when it puts DJ at frame disadvantage and at a range where DJ has no real options against any poke practically any character cares to stick out after blocking the LK sobat.

He needs a reversal to counter low profile pressure during knockdowns and resets, where he is overwhelmingly free. I don’t think there are any other characters basically free to pressure in that sense. They all have an option, even if its just a method of escape rather than a crummy reversal. They need to revert some of the changes on his EX MGU, or tweak it in a more sensible fashion. Being able to push someone out during pressure was at least an option. You wasted a bar to be safe on block. Is that so evil?

There are other issues of course. He has an obnoxious anti air dead zone just outside of the typical crossup jump range. His throw range and focus range are abysmal. His knee shot and medium kick both lack block stun and basically force you into a 50/50 after a blocked jump in. His backdash is unreliable.

In addition to reverting changes to LK.Sobat and EX.MGU, he needs his st.hk to start up much faster and have its hitbox modified to cover DJ’s AA dead zone. His throw and focus ranges need some tender loving. His jump attacks need block stun and his backdash needs to lose some frames. But even those changes are pipe dreams. Didn’t even mention enemies falling out of Ultra 1, Super, and Sobat attacks, or St.MP being unreliable/impossible to link against standing shotos and whiffing on crouching targets. Didn’t even mention whatever the fuck Cl.HP is supposed to be, or his complete lack of use for EX Red Focus. No mention of U2 whiffing on a few characters. I’m probably missing a lot. Some of those issues wouldn’t be so bad if we weren’t free to low profile.

Yet I still play him and I don’t know why. He’s a cool character, but he has so many issues it’s hard to keep smiling. I just don’t know what kind of super-japan crackrock Capcom was smoking with the nerfs in Ultra. I like to dabble in ST as of late and DJ there is pretty awesome even if I am personally ass at ST against these GGPO go-hards. Having that low invul on LK Sobat makes me feel like a moron for suggesting that it’s not a necessary part of his toolset.

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I honestly don’t expect much buffs from capcom, but hopefully fixing things that seem outright broken is in the realm of possibility.

-cl.hp “forces stand” and whiffs on crouchers
-mk sobat and cl.hp (which is worthless) are literally the only two things that red focus connects after. no cl.hk, cr.hp, ex sobat.
-EX MGU dash U2 whiffs often if preceded by 2 cr.jabs, still possible to whiff after cr.lp, cr.mp
-people fall out of regular MGU, sobats and U1 ON HIT
-cl.mk, far mp does not work on 1/3 of the cast even though frame data says it should
-the cancel window on cr.hp is virtually nonexistent.
-comboing into EX MGU is so flaky. I was in training and set decapre to crouch. cross up mk, cr.lp cr.mp EX MGU and EX MGU got blocked every time no matter how deep the crossup was. it worked every time when i did non crossup.
-try this vs poison: cross up mk, cr.lk, cr.lp, and the cr.lp whiffs every time. seriously… after 1 light attack.
-knee shot cannot hit crouching rolento at all and connects on crouching elena randomly 50% of the time (I’ve tested this a lot from various heights)

The last 3 are probably due to the fact that the new characters all have super janky hitboxes, but this stuff should all work.

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Knee shot whiffs on a couple of crouching characters, Rolento and Elena aren’t the only offenders. It’s in serious need of some loving for hitbox expansion/lowering. Either might satisfy me.

Red focus with Deej is stale, he has nothing to gain from the implementation of it. Balrog had some love with one of his rush punches to allow red focus to be viable for him, why skip out on DeeJay, the worse character overall?

I agree about the mk jump-in on block, it’s quite ridiculous. I’ve eaten a lot of DPs from attempting a cross-up into his st.lp, idk if that’s just me being bad or if it genuinely has quite bad block-stun.

Biggest issue by far is him being completely free to a low profile meaty on wake-up and medium range lows, they removed his low invincibility on Lk Sobat which may or may not have been justified…ahem. But gave him no real alternative, they tried something with EX MGU and it does not work, it gets stuffed too easily. Fix that and at least he isn’t option-less against one of the most basic forms of attack in the game, that’d be nice.

I’ll rephrase the beginning of that paragraph, it’s his biggest flaw for me personally.

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Froztey, it has nothing to do with you being bad, j.mk has no fucking block stun and its a free DP for your opponent if you hit a button after landing. Forces you into a 50/50. It’s pretty stupid.

They need to give his LK Sobat low invul back, leave the -3 it was hardly OP when coupled with the low invul (we ARE talking about DJ here), and they need to increase the invulnerability of EX MGU while also increasing the startup. It doesn’t need to always hit opponents, but it needs to be safe on block so we can at least create some space under pressure. It was like that before Ultra, and it needs to return to that state. Being able to create that space is critical even if it doesn’t connect & give you any damage.

Hell, even if EX MGU was a half decent reversal that did catch low profiles consistently to let you combo into U2, would it really be that overpowered? Low profile moves hit by EX MGU, everything else covered by upkicks. You’re still spending bar to beat braindead pressure and comboing into U2 isn’t too unbalanced considering the awful frame advantage you get after animation and the recent nerf to U2 damage. I can’t see it being obscene when so many other characters have easy as fuck combos into Ultra for free or, just the same, one bar.

I just don’t understand a lot of the decisions made by Capcom for DJ.

Like you said Froztey the biggest issue is easily the freeness to lows. They’re shit awful to deal with on wakeup and in resets, it’s literally free pressure. The only option you have is wakeup U2 in those scenarios.

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there’s a chance, but i’m not getting my hopes up

i’ll just use him for Sagat, Viper, bad/unfamiliar shoto players, gen and wherever else i’m comfortable.

been picking rog back up. Can’t understand how Rog players complain. Safe overhead that can be red focused into ultra if i’m ready or red focus lvl1 turn punch ultra juggle.

now that LK sobat is gone, just use it as an opportunity to strengthen your footsies and neutral game. The same scenarios you bait a low, you can still profit from. just sweep them or mp xx sobat if you’ve got a hard read. it sucks it’s not as low risk, but w.e this is the game we play.

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As a DJ player I don’t think you can see how anyone can complain when we’ve got it this bad.

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At this point I don’t care what Capcom does. We have lists out showing acceptable buffs and fixes as well as more extravagant changes for them to consider. But I wouldn’t be surprised if they just give Dee Jay some silly gimmick.

You can actually connect knee shot on crouching Rolento. It’s a bit more about your jump’s spacing rather than the knee shot’s height.