I understand the 55 has lag, which I have gotten used to. But when you combine the TV plus the 360+, it seems visibly different (aka: worse) than the Eightarc.
You can’t be serious.
As a Gouken player, dead serious.
I’m done. You guys have fun 
I think this is a neat test but I’m glad I can’t tell the difference between all of the boards that I own. I think it’s best that way.
Now… to get someone compare this to that stupid stick tier list lol. (I’m kidding)
1f links are muscle memory. that’s not what you should be using an example for whether lag matters. I’ll use 3s since I’m most familiar with that game.
start blocking low, and see how many times out of X number you can react block high to Dudley’s towards roundhouse.
red parry the third hit of Yun’s 1-2-3
confirm shoto low forward into super (or Chun low forward into super for something more reasonable/attainable)
late tech walk up throw on reaction
these are the kinds of things where 0.5-2f lag will matter. they’re already on the edge of human ability to react to in time. if you have the equipment available, simulate laggier and laggier setups. you’ll find your ability to do any of those things decreases the more lag there is and starts happening very quickly.
obviously in terms of real gameplay those things are huge. the difference between getting and missing your red parry of 1-2-3 activate Genei Jin is the difference of winning or losing the round, and likely affects the next round substantially as well.
try this stuff yourself. don’t tell us about how you can do your memorized combos on any monitor. I can do combos while on a screen that has 30f of delay with Enya blaring over the game sound and looking at my dog vomiting on the carpet. that doesn’t tell me anything about how much lag matters.
I gave up on 3rd Strike because of that. Going from tv with ps2 to ggpo version on a hd monitor to the arcade machine was just bs.
I feel the only fighting game that the lag has an effect on the worst with this data is 3rd Strike.
Too all this Bull shit about lag, and 1 frame counts and super human levels of visual perception.
It is not just the average player would not notice, the average human being would not notice.
Exceptional Human beings would not notice. Traditional animation, the kind that hand done by Disney studios for decades do 25 frames per second.
And our eyes can’t pic up minute details like that in Snow White or Aladdin, I strongly doubt human perception can see a 16.6667 MS instance from a 60 FPS video that most Fighting games use.
I am a firm believer in “its the warrior and not the blade” philosophy.
Sure Lag adds up, but Humans average about 215 to 300 ish
My 18 ms was the fasted time recorded, I think someone claimed to have a 11 ms but the claim was rejected by medical science.
Look I am getting PMed left and right about this BS, this is worst that that tier list someone else did a while back that Arcade Shock just had to share on Facebook.
Well, everyone will say that the different ports of 3rd Strike feel different.
Ill stop worrying about this thread though.
Can I interject?
In fighting games, you have to “confirm” things, right? You have to, for instance, be able to tell whether something hit or was blocked within X frames of it hitting to follow-up appropriately.
So wouldn’t any “human reaction is this slow” argument just strengthen the idea that you should strive to reduce lag in all other, controllable areas?
i have a Q1 with ps360+ and i tell you if there´s in fact 15ms with the latest firmware im going to cry a very long river
say you have 15f to react to a throw and tech it. now say you add 2 frames of lag to that, so you actually need to input the tech two frames earlier. you can no longer react to it. you are now guessing on throw techs and opening yourself up to whiff throw punishes. this is simple to understand and should not be controversial. it’s also the natural conclusion to what you keep posting about human reaction. when you have something that’s on the edge of human reaction and extra lag pushes it past that threshold, you are now in the realm of guessing instead of reacting.
No really, as the tiny amounts of time being discussed here is beyond human perception.
Here, this gif represents a piece of video from the Disney movie Aladdin. I know this isn’t the actual frame rate of the movie.
Did you remember seeing THIS in the movie?!
No, you didn’t and that is good old 25 fps Disney Animation, no way in Ultra Street Fighter VI you be able to see and detect a single frame in 60 fps video.
There also this
the fact that the human optic nerve responds to changes in light at about 10 cycles per second
-wikipedia
The point is not seeing a single frame, though. The point is that when you push a button, the button comes out on Frame X instead of Frame Y. So that, for instance, if you are trying to confirm Chun’s low forward into super in 3s (to use an earlier example), you have a bigger window to be able to confirm that a hit has occurred before any input you perform would be read too late by the game. Again, the slower human reaction is, it would seem to me that your stick relaying your input to the game quickly would become more and more crucial in any situation requiring a confirm from the player.
Coming back because this seems pretty genuine of a question. In fighting games most things are based off rock paper scissors. A lot of stuff isn’t true raw reactions. In fact, there is a video of whiff punishing in SF4 proving this point. Everything is a mix of match up knowledge and character knowledge plus adapting to your opponent. For example, back to whiff punishing. You’re actually doing that based on prediction. You space yourself so you’re outside their range in the hopes that they throw out an attack they like to use. You then use an attack that counters that, but if they don’t attack you could get hit on recovery by something else or get jumped on if they predicted this was what you intended. So, it goes back to rock paper scissors. A beats B beats C beats A. Most everything is not raw reactions especially when you consider moves that have 3 frames of start up.
Let me give another example. Throw setups. How often do you actually react to a throw setup? You don’t actually react, but you learn a pattern and once you know the pattern you can predict react in a way since you don’t see the throw coming. In a game like ST, you actually can react to a throw but you have enough frames to allow a human to react and then tech the throw. In SF3 and SF4 you don’t see any throw animation and have to tech it based on prediction/pattern/character knowledge. Like the other night I was playing a friend in SF4. He’d hit me a certain way, walk and throw. So, I noticed that if he hit me in that same way, and didn’t block string me, then I tech’d because I figured he was going to throw.
That’s how many aspects of a fighting game works.
Back to your question. If you see something was hit or blocked it’s basically what you do afterwards. For example, after enough play, you know that X move has enough block stun that you can follow up with a block string or perhaps get some chip damage. Often, you can simply think “oh, he blocked, but I can keep pressing this button for a string” or “he blocked, now I need to stop because I don’t have enough block stun to not get reversal attacked” or “he blocked, I should walk back and frame trap him.” Hit confirms are the same. Got a hit? Muscle memory combo after. Yes, there are some reactions in fighting games like that. You also have sound effects that give away the state the other player is in and that’s in combination to the visuals you get.
Blocks not only have block stun, but start up and recovery animations as well so you know when a character is blocking or not. Plus, there is enough frames there to decide what you want to do afterwards although in some cases some characters can reversal after a block and you can’t do anything especially if you have moves with low block or even negative block stun. That boils down to match up knowledge and game knowledge.
If an opponent walks up and throws out a jab, you don’t react jab back. What your brain does is think “this person is walking forward, now they’re in jab range, I should block” or “This person is almost in jab range, I should strong before they jab so I can hit confirm attack.” Some people might not realize that. People who think they can simply see a jab and whiff punish or counter on reaction are pretty much wrong about it.
This is why a good deal of top level play comes from experience and not necessarily high dexterity and reaction speed. A good mind that learns the opponent and knows the match will trump someone with far less experience but much better reactions. Of course, having great reactions and high dexterity will set you above other players once you get that same experience, don’t get me wrong on that.
And then, beyond that, it’s rock paper scissors. Except in SF, it’s Jab, Strong, Fierce, Short, Forward, Round House.
I hate the turn fighting games took once frame counting became popular. I’ve always been of the opinion that all of that information becomes “feel” once you spend a lot of time playing a game.
Human perception is irrelevant in this discussion. You don’t have to be aware your stick is laggy for it to fuck you over. That is to say knowing that there is input delay is not necessary to be effected by it.
Your animation example disingenuous. This isn’t about noticing single frames within the construction of an illusion. This is a three part process. It’s about something happening on screen, someone responding via input to that something happening on screen, the input being interpreted by the device, and finally the outcome of that input realized on screen. Let’s go back to my 13 frame overhead example. There is no aural cue to accompany the visual. The move has 13 frame startup so it hits on the 14th frame. Person is blocking low(1) and decides to block high(4) just as frame 13 comes up, but oh shit! My stick has a little over a frame of delay so the back input later than when it was pressed, thus too late to block the overhead. Person gets bopped and eats a fat combo. Which likely leads into another disadvantaged position.
Can you still tell me that this frame delay does not matter? 13 frames is 215ms which is the average reaction time. This is the average person. Yes, the delay matters less in some scenarios and perhaps in others not at all. Still, this delay has an impact on multiple, I would argue important, situations and the only way to overcome it is to have a better reaction time than you would have otherwise. Even if you don’t believe that it matters for the average person, heck even if you think the test done to get these numbers are bullshit, you have to concede that a PCB with a frame of lag is worse than one without.
Moonchilde is very on point here in his descriptions and perception of 1, 2, 3+ frames of lag, and how prediction and educated guesses are the central focus. Also naturally you can hit 1 frame links on any reasonable PCB, since it is more important that whatever delay it has is consistent. A stick that consistently lags a frame is not garbage; in fact people have played on converters for years where 1 frame delay was considered decent.
That said, I don’t think it is somehow beneficial that a stick would lag more, and any significant delay does indeed contribute to the total reaction time. Plus it is just plain useful to know that a particular stick adds some delay compared to another.
Posts about human reaction time being long as whoa are completely missing the point because it is not about reacting to some stimulus within say 20ms, it is about not adding an additional 20ms to your total reaction time. That is a handicap in a pure technical sense. How much each extra frame is worth to you is a matter of opinion.
Edit: ^That is a completely relevant example. Your PCB is not going to make you better or worse at the game, but there is no reason to appreciate unnecessary lag. The only reason you wouldn’t want less input lag is if the delay would be less consistent, or become lower than some preferred reference point, which afaik has never happened in FGs.
I don’t mean to distract from the discussion but that is not a great example of what we are talking about, especially since that frame isn’t even in the GIF as a reference point.
I don’t think anyone’s suggesting anything beneficial about lag- the point being made is that these amounts are nothing to freak out over/blame your losses on, which is the natural reaction most people reading this information are bound to have.