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Is it impossible to enjoy your character while also not thinking they are the toppest tier? I hate the whiners who look for whining to whine about.
Im glad 2012 is so balanced, it is a good thing. Thats why you can say he isnt 100% the “best” just an opinion of many.
3S Chun Li doesn’t have an SPD, dive kick, or a DP. =\
Forgot about Fei, that match-up is very annoying for Seth indeed. Not sure why Akuma is considered a 6-4 though?
I also agree his zoning game may not be as strong (as it used to be) compared to others, but it’s still decent enough to be mentioned as a forte of the character imo. The reason I consider him a top 3 character is because like you said, he has the ability to win a match from one hit. Once he gets that momentum and his mix-ups going, he can literally force himself (lolrapejk) on his opponents.
@Greyson, yeah I main Gen
What? No, but downplaying your own character is kind of sad. Just accept that you are playing low/mid/top tier instead of talking about stuff that comes across as an excuse or downplaying. Also lol at calling me a whiner, he very insightful of you, come on man. Anyone who has been around long enough would know I am not that.
Why would I ask your buddies when I see you whining right here on this page? You should just accept people have different opinions on who’s what tier. Maybe they are downplaying, maybe they have good reason.
fyi I think Seth is #1 in this game but there is plenty of room for other view points.
How is stating my opinion in a reasonable way on a *discussion board in a topic asking a question *whining?
‘‘You should just accept a different reasoning’’
If they have a good reason I gladly do so, but saying Seth isn’t a top character is kind of odd regardless of personal anecdotal experiences with the character. If they have a good reason they should say so, after all that is the point of a discussion board, even moreso because he created the topic with a question himself.
Well anyway, c’est la via, live and let live, etc lol.
I main seth, I love playing him he is fun as shit! But he has his weaknesses like everyone else, when it really comes down to it there really isn’t a best character in the game, 2012 is the most balanced SF4 has ever been
You’re not stating your opinion anymore than the guy who says Seth isn’t top 3 or 5 but you call him whining… or rather you say you hate it which I consider the same thing. You gotta be even and honest with stuff.
no need for arguing
Wow…I hope you are not a native speaker of the English language, because those (whining & hating) are not the same thing at all (regardless of what you consider them to be). Also I said ‘‘I hate it when ***someone *** downplays their toptier character’’. I was speaking generally about it, also my further wording in that comment would imply I also loathe the reverse (i.e. someone complaining multiple times Gen is weak and he hates move X and Y while he mains the character).
You are right about the fact I also state my opinion, but atleast I put thought into my arguments after giving it(as do many others though!). This is a discussion board after all. Drive-by posts like calling people trolls or whiners are sadly commonplace on SRK though.
gdlk and the truth. Ever hear a Bison player say his s.HK is a bad move? I have. Almost lost my mind.
ON TOPIC:
I would say that Seth is the best character in the game. Obviously personal opinion, but I prefer matchup based tier lists. I agree that having a 6-4 against Dan and T. Hawk is irrelevant. What really matters to me is having favorable matchups against the majority of the cast and that his “bad” matchups should have an asterisk next to them. It would look something like this:
Seth vs Fei Long 4-6 *
*6-4 if Seth gets a knock down
Not many characters can say that they can punish Akuma’s teleport meterless.
Not many characters can punish moves even if they hit. (Poor Blanka)
Not many characters have a high / low / grab / SRK mixup AFTER a successfully blocked high / low / grab / SRK mixup.
Not saying he doesn’t have weaknesses. He definitely does. Walk speed, not-so-good buttons, etc. Overall I would say that his strengths more than outweigh his weaknesses.
This is a goober of a post.
Like the only valid reasons as to why Seth is the best are from Kiku lol. You can argue that he is the best match up wise (I think Cammy is personally) but he has problems against the other top tiers (which is an issue since more people are going to be playing these characters) as well as playing a little too risky to really be a number one tournament contender. Cammy’s the best in my book here too (Fei and Gouki behind her.) Many people bitch about all these 50/50s but many of them are in fact not safe and Seth has to take a lot of risks to start his game and keep it going. This is frequently tossed under the carpet, but these sorts of risks are not good in a tournament setting. You’d rather have something relatively safe to toss out than dedicating to 30-40 frames to a single move. Of course, Tanden and SPD are still pretty fucking amazing, and you have to take the bad tournament risks against Seth to beat these options most of the time…so it kind of evens out in a strange way. Rambling for some reason…moving on.
SPD is not that scary as a command grab, it’s scary because of the incredible positioning and options Seth gets when he lands it. His dive kick is no longer as amazing, but it lets him move around a bit and counter zoning to a degree, as well as…being a dive kick still. His DP isn’t the greatest as a get off me tool (mainly because it’s not 3f), but it’s still 5f (reasonably fast) with tons of don’t fuck with me frames and can be made safe. His teleport…well, yeah, it’s pretty ass compared to how it was in Vanilla. Gouki’s is better as an escape option too. Regardless, it’s definitely still got applications.
Seth cannot cover most characters escape options with one OS unless the opponent is cornered. That being said, Seth is definitely above average in this department because he can cover all but one option quite often - which he can cover with another option almost always.
Seth is honestly not that mobile. He can doodle around at full screen but once he gets near mid range his slowness becomes rather apparent. Dive kicking helps on some members of the cast without a long reaching AA option but the height restriction, start up, and terrible hit box usually just make it a means for getting around zoning (this is often another story online though…it’s much harder to AA with even the slightest lag.) Wall jumps don’t really define mobility although they do lead into borderline retarded rewards on good reads.
I am getting tired of “shenanigans” being brought up. There is nothing deceptive that would only work if you didn’t know about it…if you eat Hyakuretsukyaku in the corner, you are going to eat a legit mix up. Well, okay, yes there is…but it’s not something that really stands out and it doesn’t have to do with head stomps 99% of the time.
If Seth gets knocked down, then yes, there is in fact a good chance that Seth could die against a large portion of the cast. He has a very obnoxious hit box which serves to avoid some bullshit but ends up making him eat more character specific bullshit and giving incredibly ambiguous cross ups on him. This is just how it is when you have a huge hit box with 800 health. “If he has two bars, he’s fine” is bullshit…but to be fair, that doesn’t mean Seth is free on wake up. It doesn’t mean he has a below average wake up either. It just means that he has to, well, block sometimes.
Seth’s BnB doesn’t lead into much but corner push until you’re very close to the corner. Hyakuretsukyaku does not lead to a knockdown that can really be capitalized on midscreen without two bars. Now when you’re cornered, this is one of the best BnBs in the game for sure. But until then it’s pretty meh. cr.HP is not a BnB: it is a go to punish, and a rather slow one at that (rightfully so, as it’s pretty damn good.) cr.MK xx Boom xx FADC, combo is not a BnB either. Also most characters stun other characters after a couple of BnBs and a mix up. :wtf:
How you time the dive kick does not matter, it will not cross up without a character specific set up and usually cannot be hit confirmed safely. It has a height restriction, the hit box is terrible, it has rather noticeable start up (not going to call it slow though) and basically…it just isn’t “great.” Not anymore anywho. It’s arguably the worst dive kick in the game. I say that as a dive kick compared to other dive kicks though…I mean, it’s still a dive kick…so on the other hand, it’s automatically great, haha. It’s like the worst of one of the best things to have.
Having half the tools of the cast (what?) doesn’t make him a versatile character. Indeed, Seth used to be a character that performed the best at “extremes” - zoning and rush down. Now he’s more of a rush down monster and a shitty zoner (but still has zoning options available to him, which is no doubt important.) He has virtually no footsie game and his mid-range game is rather weak. He does have some decent defensive pokes, though.
I don’t know how to respond to “best jumps in the game.” If you’re having trouble AAing Seth offline then you need to step up your game. And not teching against Seth…teleport the same as others…okay, yeah, I’m just gonna skip this post…
I’d say Viper is also a bad match up for him. Sakura as well. Gouki is a debatable 6-4, but it is very easy to see why people would lean 6-4…Gouki has footsies, is very hard to zone, walks very fast, can hit Seth hard and lock him down with his “vortex” (if you wanna call it that.) st.HK hits him twice when he’s crouching and Gouki can often escape Seth’s mix ups by eating a fst.HP (when Gouki has two bars, you don’t feel particularly tempted to try OSing his teleport in fear of that DP knockdown.)
His zoning is honestly pretty much ass but his anti-zoning tools and mind game applications boost this so much that it makes it worth mentioning.
Now, a lot of this might seem like I’m downplaying my character…I’m not, I’m just tellin you how it is…
[details=Spoiler]I think Seth is currently #4 overall. Reasoning is pretty simple…I just think three characters are currently better:
- Cammy (better match ups over all, takes less risks, and takes less dangerous risks. Has strong+damaging mix ups, decent fundamentals to work with and the most retarded dive kick ever with meter which means a lot of things for Cammy.)
- Fei (better match ups over all, takes less risks, takes much less dangerous risks. Has decent mix ups to work with, incredible fundamentals to work with, and can whiff punish blinking.)
- Adon (much more rounded match ups overall, takes less risks. Doesn’t have much to work with in terms of mix ups, but has great fundamentals to work with and generally does not actually lose any match ups. Can hit fairly hard as well.)[/details]
In my biased opinion, Akuma or Cammy is the best character in the game. Seth’s footsies and approach tools are too poor for me to consider him the best character.
Doesn’t that setup leave him at -1? That still puts the opponent into a SRK / SPD / tanden / etc mixup.
Relevancy? Seth as a character was arguably better in Vanilla (toe tap active frames, j.HP, etc). What matters here is that he has one. If you look closely at who people consider top tier, you’ll see that they can all change their jump arc in some way. Seth, Viper, Cammy, Akuma, Adon, and Rufus. Relevancy? He, along with those other characters are just that much harder to anti-air. Not impossible, just harder than most.
I agree, but I will also say that that is “over-stretching” things. I’ll go away now…
Punishing Blanka on hit for stuff is my favorite part of SF4. Wait, that’s not true. The astonished reactions of Blanka players who get punished for stuff on hit is my favorite part of SF4.
Chun Li literally has no button to stuff Seth’s divekick, the best she can do is focus backdash. I am 100% serious about this, the best she can do is guess j.hp, EX SBK, or U2. People who are saying Seth’s divekick doesn’t have a good hitbox probably need a reality check.
Seth can hit-confirm divekick into cr.lp cl.hp unless the spacing is exactly wrong. Farther out he can do cr.mp xx legs, and even farther out he can do cr.mk xx legs (or even sonic boom FADC). You can hit-confirm the divekick and then hit-confirm the cancel into the normal. Even if you don’t hit-confirm the divekick you’re still in an SPD/cr.lp/SRK mixup on hit or block.
I think Akuma’s a bad matchup because of his better footsies, Akuma’s high damage, and your inability to keep him out. Totally winnable, but you need to really know the matchup.
nigga what
Chun-Li:
fst.LP
cst.MP
cr.HP
cst.MK
fst.MK
fst.HK
Dive kick is +2 (prroooooooooobbbabblyy) unless you hit it perfectly, meaning some characters can do stuff. I mean yes this is still pretty damn good if you fail to AA; it’s just something people should know in case their AA game sucks (so maybe they can try to just block the DK and mash FADC after while hoping for the best…haha.)
You can dive kick without much fear once you’re actually in…but this is almost never what people are complaining about.
Hit box: go look at the hit boxes. I think Evil Ryu is the only one with a worse hit box, but it leads to unblockables iirc. Rufus, Yun, and Yang all have worse hit boxes but the speed can vary, can cross up, Rufus IADK, etc. Cammy is well Cammy, they’re amazing. Gouki’s aren’t as useful for what Seth wants to use it for, but the hit box is muuuch better and it has arguably better applications on knockdown.
but it’s still a dive kick so it’s still awfully nice to have
also 2f SPD would be nuts, too over powered lol
Sure Chun can stuff the dive kick, but she doesn’t have a ground option (like Balrog’s Crouch Fierce) that beats both divekick and standard jump-ins with the same timing.
I tend to think when someone says they hate something they are throwing out a complaint which is whining. Rhetorical differences. Doesn’t really matter now.
fst.MK, cst.MK and cr.HP work pretty nicely…they trade if you time it badly but that’s usually a good thing for Chun (sometimes Seth will just wind up behind you on a really bad cr.HP)