How does hit stun deterioration work?

Nooneyouknow · February 1, 2012, 4:20pm

Honestly, it’s just simple hit stop. Hit stop freezes the entire game for several frames whenever a hit is landed. This is actually true of most games. Very nice write up overall though.

Chef_Borjan · February 1, 2012, 5:12pm

So the whole mantra of ‘the more hits a move does the more hitstun scaling it does’ is rubbish then? It’s only true because generally a move that hits more does takes more time, but if a move does more hits, but does so in a less amount of time, then there will be less hitstun deterioration for the rest of the combo?

Fantastic insight this btw.

Cougar · February 1, 2012, 10:16pm

Honestly I’m not sure, simply because I didn’t test that information. Someone else made a long post on HSD a while back and that’s what he said. The only reason I actually posted it was because it does a rather good job explaining why beams always hit fully, regardless of HSD. I’ll test that for you later.

And Chef Borjan, I think so. There may be some multi-hitting moves that fail to freeze the timer, but I’m not sure.

Cougar · February 2, 2012, 3:19am

So I just tested, and every time I did St.L xx SnapBack, regardless of the combo length before it, the SnapBack worked.

Darksim · February 2, 2012, 10:01am

Air normals cause more hitstun in superjump state than they do in a regular jump state. Take Sentinel, who normally cannot combo his j.L into his j.S. Launch them (which puts you in super jump state), and it will work.

Interestingly, flight mode retains the hitstun of whatever state it was started in. Starting flight from the ground has the same effect as starting it from a normal jump. Starting flight from a super jump and flying down (Or, a tigerknee flight) still gives the same hitstun that you would have at super jump height. This allows j.L to combo into j.S.

You could also set the dummy to normal jump, and kick him/her with Sentinel’s j.M. You can visually see the difference in the amount of hitstun there is when you fly in a super jump state versus when you do not.

The_Most_Unknown · February 3, 2012, 5:35am

This is my theory on how hitstun deterioration works. I do not come prepared with videos to support my case, but with past experiences and extensive labbing. Bear in mind that this is all speculation, but that it is speculation with some in-game evidence to back it up.

First of all, HSD is a timer. From the very first hit of the combo, it is activated and begins ticking downward. Every move has a base hitstun value and a minimum hitstun value. As the timer ticks downward, the moves slowly transition from their base value to their minimum value. The minimum value for each move differs from move to move, but I believe the lowest value of any move is 4 frames. I could be wrong, though. That is the system in a nutshell; a timer that decreases a move’s hitstun as it nears zero. It seems really simple, and that’s because I haven’t started discussing the different factors that affect the timer.

As you may know, all the timers in the game, be it for X Factor or powerup hypers, freeze momentarily when the person using the timer lands a hit. I call this the Timer Freeze Property. This property also applies to the HSD timer, from what I can tell. Although it’s hard to create a test that tells for sure, it makes logical sense and it seems to pop up a bit in the game when people delay their moves too much.

The next interesting property is that, from what I can tell, a certain amount of time is re-added to the HSD timer when the opponent is launched, and a flying screen occurs. This theory has great merit to it; one who regularly plays Doctor Strange can relate to this property quite well. You see, in Strange’s Air Impact Palm loops, there comes a point where if you try to do Jumping MMH xx Impact Palm just one more time, they fall out. If you launch them, however, the Jumping MMH xx Impact Palm works again.

Now, before HSD was fully explored, the common argument against this theory was that the flying screen HSD and regular HSD were separate. However, with some tricky timing, Strange can do an entire combo without launching, and when he finally does launch, his air series will not work. This can be verified with many other characters, too, making the theory presumably valid.

Something that I haven’t quite figured out the details of are the way special opponent states affect the HSD timer. From what I have observed, however, I can guess that the HSD timer never stops running, and that not even special states alter the flow of the timer. In several combos with groundbounce starters, I’ve found that the timer definitely continues running during bouncing states. It also definitely continues running during hard knockdowns, and soft knockdowns mark the end of a combo. That leaves two special opponent states that I haven’t figured out.

•Crumple state
•Special hitstun state

A special hitstun state is a state where the opponent is placed in some sort of fixed or mechanically different hitstun, such as a spinning knockdown or the fixed hitstun caused by Strange’s Air Impact Palm. It is unknown whether or not the timer runs during these states, but I firmly believe that it does. Sadly, I have no evidence to support this except for experience with combos. As for crumple states, I believe it runs there as well, although it may run slower than normal.

Finally, TAC’s affect hitstun in some way that I cannot exactly tell. I know the amount of hitstun the incoming character has to work with is proportionate to the length of the original character’s combo, but the extent of this is unknown. Upon a TAC, the HSD timer is temporarily reset to a given amount, where it appears to stay until the new character lands. Once the new character touches the ground, the HSD timer is set to the original time, minus the time of the entire combo. That’s what I can tell. In case you weren’t aware, a TAC also puts the opponent into a soft knockdown. I’m sure you knew that, though.

Also, this goes without saying. The following moves are never affected by HSD, despite the fact that the timer keeps running.

•Soft Knockdown
•Hard Knockdown
•Wallbounce
•Groundbounce
•Crumple
•Spinning Knockdown
•Fixed hitstun
•Sequences in which moves hit more frequently than once every four (?) frames

That pretty much wraps up my knowledge of HSD.

Great post. Thanks, I was curious about the TAC because I was just informed about how HSD doesn’t appear until after the character lands (I.E. Dr. Doom.)

taekua · April 6, 2012, 10:39pm

when HSD is severely high, there are some moves that cause wallbounce that even if connected would not cause wall bounce due to the distance between the opponent and the wall, if this distance is too much, opponent will recover before he wallbounces, will try to upload one vid to show off this… some of you may already experienced this…

Spartan_Throne · April 16, 2012, 8:17pm

To add to what others have said, in this video I showed the timer in action:

[media=youtube]yimU9-a-VVs[/media]

The combo at the start works when starting in or near to the corner, but as shown from 1:18ish onwards, when started from midscreen, the extra time spent at the start of the combo when Thor was travelling towards the corner means that the :h: doesn’t cause enough hitstun to combo into Drill Claw anymore.

taekua · April 17, 2012, 11:54pm

… First of all, I know this, second… show some respect, I will tomorrow show with a video that when HSD is severely high wall bounce may sometimes not be achieved… instead of just coming here to insult people, try to get an idea of what they are trying to expose … peace…

TheDarkPhoenix · October 30, 2012, 4:40pm

I need to trim some of the fat out of this thread but in the mean time, discussion on HSD should go here. I don’t think people truly realize how HSD works in marvel.

xero15 · October 30, 2012, 8:31pm

That’s interesting. It’s funny because same thing can be said about launchers and sj:s:. When I was playing around with Storm I was doing some of her assisted combos into flight mode and after I launched and did my fly loops :s: just simply did not knock down like she was in super jump mode. I thought maybe I missed the launch in my rush to do the combo but the damage was the same meaning the launcher connected earlier.

TheDarkPhoenix · October 30, 2012, 8:35pm

^ I actually had something like that happen to me with storm and taskmaster also…

random side note…

Out of all the threads and forums on srk, this one has the potential to change the game completely.

xero15 · October 30, 2012, 9:06pm

Yeah I’m not sure how it works but I was able to optimize my throw damage with Spidey with a few changes. Now I’m able to get 800k off of a throw with him. Using assist of course

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

phantasy · October 30, 2012, 9:11pm

I believe taekua is talking about something different. Vergil’s stinger doesn’t have set knockback, and if your combo goes on long enough, sometimes it will not make the opponent hit the wall with its knockback even without using a wallbounce yet.

Hit stun deterioration (HSD). Hit stun decreases as the combo goes along.

It runs on a timer. The timer is continues to run during TACs, but simply does not apply its effect on moves during TACs at all. The timer is slower on grounded opponents. The timer is faster on airborne opponents. The timer seems to go down a lot when you do a ground bounce, more than a normal juggle.

A character that has super jumped has added hitstun to their attacks.
I do not know if getting hit or blocking/pushblocking will get rid of the super jump state for hitstun. It does for the ability to call assists, however.

Minimum hitstun of any attack, even when the HSD timer has run so long that every attack seems to have nearly no hitstun, will be 4 frames (I believe). It might be 3.
So, any attack faster than 3-4 frames will always connect. Examples are any normal canceled into a snap back (1-2 frames dependent on character), Spencer normal canceled into point blank Armor Piercer (3 frame)

Some attacks have their own special properties which allow them to always combo. For example, crumples, stuns, wall bounces, ground bounces, hard knockdown, soft knockdown (Vergil crH… why)

Duck_Strong · October 30, 2012, 10:46pm

Starting a combo with a special state inducing move (ground bounce, hard knockdown, wall-bounce, etc) seems to greatly reduce what you can do.

I believe this is why most throw combos need to be shortened a great deal (except the ones that don’t cause a hard knockdown like Mags or if you can catch your opponent before the hard knockdown like Doom, Thor or Iron Man).

To test this, start a Doom combo with j.f+h and then start one with j.s. Even if you air dash down and catch them with cr.m, cr.h, s off the j.s, you won’t be able to land nearly as much even though they take roughly the same time (and less time than a jump in like j.m).

Nos99 · October 31, 2012, 2:10am

I believe if they are taken off their feet or not also matters.

Basically, if you keep them on their feet (you hit them while they’re standing), you’ll get more time… It’s almost as if HSD doesn’t kick in for a little bit if they’re still on their feet.

With throws, I’m not sure if the timer starts during the animation, or after they’re let go… I haven’t tested, but it should be fairly straightforward to test.

DrewGrimey · October 31, 2012, 2:23am

yup, with my team I can do a full combo with viper, up tac to vergil and begin my sword loop. If I am mid-screen, vergil’s stinger does not wall bounce since the opponent pops out before they hit the wall due to HSD, if they are in the corner than a wall bounce happens

xero15 · October 31, 2012, 2:37am

So is this why after a long combo into TAC Dorm loop he can’t perform super as usual?

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Dark_Sonic · October 31, 2012, 2:56am

DID YOU KNOW?

super jumping actually adds hitstun to your attacks. A regular jump j.H will have less hitstun than the same j.H performed in a super jump state.

xero15 · October 31, 2012, 3:06am

It also changes certain properties depending on how it’s used. For example with Spidey after a web throw you can OTG zip into j:s: s:m: c:h:. You can also OTG into j:s: c:h: but it’s slightly difficult due to them being low and sometimes the c:h: just straight crosses up. When you super jump air dash over though into OTG zip j:s: they somehow pop up high making it a lot easier to go from j:s: into c:h: while omitting the s:m: altogether to save on some hit stun. To be honest though I still think this has to do more with the camera though since the screen kinda bounces the moment I super jump and get over there but the effect is all the same.