Funny. At first I thought this question was general but it actually started some interesting discussion.
Whatever you do, don’t stack too much theory fighting on top of it. In the end of the day it’s more about consistency in execution than anything else. If you reacted on time but botched your DP so a jab came out, what needs work, your dexterity or your raw reflexes? You will keep getting closer to your goal of “DPing on reaction” by actually playing FGs instead of thinking too much about them
I got .300 or so each time I took that test, yet I DP people on reaction very well, fuck a test.
And yeah, fuck SF4 timing compared to some other games, look at KoF short hops and DP them shits.
I scored 178 on the gamefudge test, but would this test really do anything if you just keep practicing?
Well another day, and more disaster follows. I actually tried to zone and play more footsies so I could set up the opportunity to DP on reaction. Well it didn’t work out, I got kicked in the face a lot. But of course these things take time so I’m going to keep at it and thanks to everybody who gave me advice. I read everything and will try to apply it to my game.
It’s because you have to think. Catching a glass or that test, you just react…you know what to do without thinking about it. When you see a character move in sf4, you need to figure out what attack is coming, remember if it’s punishable or not, and decide how to punish. Just a lot more going on than watching for a dot to turn yellow.
I would like to try and get Justin or someone to come in here and try that reaction test
Does the same go for CS? though its like SFIV. Its just pure hitboxes.
Soooo true.
Especially because my main is Chun, this is definitely what is happening. Unlike many other characters, chun’s tools are all VERY situation specific. She has an AA normal for almost every incoming aerial attack, but the difficulty is NONE of them are universal. Depending on the spacing, timing, and the attack of the character that is incoming, I have to make a split second decision if I’m using: stand jab, stand fierce, stand roundhouse, stand forward, crouch strong, jump roundhouse, jump fierce, airthrow, or crouch forward.
So you are probably right on the money…as chun its really hard to just react…because you have to choose one of six options, five of which are WRONG and will get you raped with a huge combo if you choose incorrectly.
NO complaining here though, that is a big part of what I LOVE about Chunner.
have you watched daigo play bruv
I hear what you are saying, I think, but I’d like to answer the original question you asked.
>If it hits the opponent, how is it bad?
Cause a guess is still a guess. Even if it hits, it only hit because you got lucky, not because you truly outplayed your opponent. It also conditions you as a player to believe that blindly guessing is ok, when its really not against smart players.
Its like this: I can guess at a blind intersection that no one is coming. If I do this a lot, probably I’ll guess right a lot of the time. If I get lucky a lot at first, I might start to believe that its actually safe to do this…and the POW…one day I guess wrong and I’m fucked.
Same goes for guessing in street fighter…you should (in my opinion which I admit may be flawed) NEVER have to guess when the penalty for guessing wrong is high. If your opponent put you in a guessing game situation, then the mistake was getting into that situation in the first place…and then you really do just have to guess and live with the results.
But putting YOURSELF in a guessing situation where the penalty for guessing wrong is that you get punished…that just doesn’t seem like smart play to me.
Any situation where you are anticipating a jump in, has options that are safer than a guess DP. Don’t hamstring yourself by choosing to guess when you could choose to exercise a safer option that doesn’t rely on luck.
Yes. In person. I’ve also met him. Daigo isn’t guessing most of the time, and when he does guess, its in situations where if he guesses wrong, he is not punishable.
That “ume shoryu” mythos is that he has some super human ability, but what he is really doing is exercising a SUPER low risk option.
Notice that if he EVER does that shit right in someone’s face, its either on reaction to something they did that leaves them vulnerable, or its when he has the two bars to FADC out and still be safe.
If he does it from far away (such as in the amazing Arturo vs Daigo money matches) its at a distance where he can land, recover, and block before his opponent can punish him for it.
Its completely different in every way, from anticipating a jump in and blindly guessing with DP where all your opponent has to do is dash up and rape you.
You’re applying far too much paper theory to this, and I think time with a shoto in another game or even this one, would change your opinion on how psychic dragon punches function. My honest opinion is that someone who knows Street Fighter would read these posts and skip them just as quickly. Your thoughts on Street Fighter are just as textbook and safe as the playstyle you promote. Sometimes you HAVE to take a risk, and sometimes it is in your best interest to condition an opponent to react a certain way. On the main page, they talk about letting an opponent hit you just to land a 360. It’s the same principle. Should you guess that your opponent isn’t going to perceive a short jump/360 with their eyes, or perform another anti-air altogether?
If you are conditioning your opponent in situations that create a robust mind game, then your gamble isn’t being done blindly or on “auto-pilot.” As much as folks demand solid play, there are sometimes where doing something risky can be beneficial, especially in a game with good dragon punches that are difficult to punish. Why just do the safer option? Because sometimes that’s all your opponent is accounting for and you have to do something to get them to open up. Not every game is full of brainless safe jump/option select/Double Meter scenarios, so you have to take into account that sometimes you’re in a “bad situation” or you’re in a difficult match and a risk has to be taken. EVERYONE guesses in fighting games, despite being told not to. The difference between an educated guess and a blind one is very apparent, but difficult to convey in Street Fighter. Sometimes you “just know.” I don’t think it’s in good taste to analyze Daigo’s play and present that as some kind of talking point when you admit that there’s still things you don’t understand about the game, parabellum.
Corrosive.
Maybe I came off wrong. My intent here was not to try and sound like I know everything, which is why almost every one of my posts like this usually contain a disclaimer that says “Just my opinion, could be wrong” or something to that effect.
I play characters that MUST take risks to do damage, so I do understand what you are saying. I actually play shotos a lot, but I only play Chun and Dictator in tourneys.
I thought the WHOLE point of discussions like this was for each of us to share our views, and then learn from each other. If that is somehow not ok here, then clearly I have misunderstood the purpose of these forums.
But I do have issue, respecfully with this statement you made:
>I don’t think it’s in good taste to analyze Daigo’s play and present that as some kind of talking point when you admit that there’s still things you don’t understand about the game, parabellum.
This is not a matter of taste at all. It is precisely BECAUSE I am trying to learn here, that I am making efforts to respectfully analyze one of the best players in the world. My analysis is my personal interpretation of what he may be doing or thinking, and like ALL interpretations, it carries with it an implied notion that it is simply my way of trying to understand what is in someone else’s head. I thought that was clearly obvious, but if I need to make it even more clear, I can start adding “well, this is just what I think and this in no way is an attempt to speak for daigo, and oh by the way, I respect him a lot so please try not to take this in bad taste”…but then things would just degerate into verbosity that even I find over the top.
The bottom line is that I make every effort to make it clear that I am a newer player, that my opinions and my understandings clearly only reflect my personal point of view.
We are all learning, we all enhance our understanding by sharing that understanding with others, and in turn, hearing their differing understanding of the same situation.
Rather than suggest I shouldn’t be trying to figure these things out, I believe it would be entirely more productive if you simply pointed out the places where you think I have misunderstood the situation.
That way we all learn more, and others who are afraid to share their own opinions, are welcomed into this collective learning process.
I say all of this with respect to you and the rest of the people reading this thread.
Then I should ask, how do you know he isn’t guessing? What makes your assessment any more clearer than someone else? More experience or knowledge with Street Fighter or not. It’s respectful that you are trying to learn, but little things like that… they just strike an odd chord.
Rather than pursue a critique of how you post then, I’ll respect that for the sake of continuing the conversation moving forward than going off topic. You can probably guess many folks’ reactions to reading your posts, so let’s just promote the discussion. I present this:
[media=youtube]FMAKRQFFqdI&NR=1#t=2m09s[/media]
Now, that sequence where Ken has Fei in the knee bash. Did Fei just block or did he account for the Dragon Punch where the second kneebash occurred and just assume that Ken was going to ride that all the way to victory? The guessing is potentially a two-way street. My honest opinion is that the Fei player just didn’t account for the DP against his reversal technique while being in that, admittedly, bad situation. You can create situations like this in other games as well, and sometimes folks are expecting a Dragon Punch instead of another throw. Just something to keep in mind. It’s a very textbook example, admittedly, but I don’t think we need to go into a bunch of examples.
My assumption that is is not guessing is based on this: If he was guessing, then he would be guessing wrong enough that it would show up in his play against other really good players. Since I have yet to see this evidence of real guessing, and since he is one of the best players in the world, I believe it is a reasonable assumption to make, that he is indeed not guessing most of the time. When you do see him guess (there are multiple examples of this in that money match that I referenced) its in places where the penalty is either non existant, or very small.
>What makes your assessment any more clearer than someone else?
Absolutely nothing. We are all trying to read the tea leaves when we watch someone, anyone else play these games. I never stated that my understanding was somehow better than another understanding, and if that was implied in my choice of words, I do feel the need to apologize for that part. I was responding to the implication by that other poster, who seemed to be indicating that he believes Daigo guesses a lot. My belief is different, but that does not make it better. I hope that subtle distinction is understood.
>My honest opinion is that the Fei player just didn’t account for the DP against his reversal technique while being in that, admittedly, bad situation.
I concur. I should watch the whole match, to see what kinds of exchanges happened before that one (was there some kind of pattern and or conditioning involved?). But it appears that Fei got caught in the knee bash > safe jump setup twice, and then was desperate to find a way out, choosing to flame kick and losing to ken’s dp. The flame kick seemed like it was done out of desperation, imho.
You can make a really low level mind game look really good depending on how good you are, but it’s like, what was the character he was fighting? What’s the match up? In IV, it’s a very watered down game and very EASY to make something safe. Many of those situations that occur are barely applicable to other Street Fighter games based on the mechanics going on. You can’t always make something safe in other games, so keep in mind where that advice is coming from. Especially in the example I posted where if you block you can lose just as much life and be put back in the same situation looking for a trap DP as well as looking for a trap throw.
I can only guess what his question meant, it was fairly loaded. But as far as “they only do it when the odds are in their favor/completely safe”, I’m not really convinced of that. As Steve Harrison once said “I clearly had no life, what else was I going to do, block?” You can pull just as many examples of crazy DPs as you can safe ones. A good player does what it takes to win, trying to apply percentages or analyzes chances every time is why folks say “You’re not the one behind the sticks.” If you want to understand, I really advise playing those characters rather than analyzing them. To get a feel for how you have to react or make a read.
The conditioning was that he put him in a knee bash once, safe jumped and did it twice… it was the heat of the moment, he probably assumed he was going to do crouching short xx tick throw instead of DP. It’s not that complex, you don’t have to see the whole match, just understand what a knee bash does to someone’s brain.
Great points, thanks for the discussion…so few people on here are capable of disagreeing respectfully.
I’ll think a lot about what you said.
here’s what to do.
1.dont throw fireballs
2. learn to crouching srk 323p
3.position yourself at their jump arc landing spot and wait for a jump. Wait for the jump! It’s coming! wiggle and wait, say “jump”…they didn’t jump? or walk forward and cr.mk.
4. If the character gets close, like cr.mp distance you want to switch to cr.hp if they jump. keep the dragon for long range jumps where youre at a distance you can keep your cool at.
5. go for the dragon punch even if youdoubt your reflexes, you’ve probably conditioned yourself to block jump ins subconsciously, you need to reverse that. Take the hit and try to srk and fail.
6. go for fireballs up close or out of range, not in their jump arc where you’ll be crouching, wiggling, waiting…