How Could Fighting Games Change for the Better?

Current Fighting Games Fighting Game Discussion
601

I post about it because the discussion is interesting and fun to talk about, as long as nobody gets pissy.

Maybe it is inconsistent, I dunno. That kind of thing absolutely can help, but it strikes me as being, well, gimmicky again. There’s an inherent problem with that kind of content (would include skullgirls really good tutorial under this) that you have to already have bought the game to experience it… so while its nice, and can help people develop and improve, it doesn’t really help get people to try it that much excepting maybe secondhand through reviews and such.

And that’s the point of talking about production values (it’s more than just graphics), the entire idea is to draw people to the game and get them to try it. Once you’re at that point, then you have the challenge of keeping people playing. Production values matter for that some at first, but tend to get less and less important over time. In the same way, bonus modes &ct. help grab people and hold them for a little while, but it doesn’t last.

This is where gameplay quality comes to the fore and is all important. Going from ‘oh I’ll try that!’ to ‘wow, this is game is freakin’ amazing, I’ve somehow devoted hundreds of hours to it!’ You still need to get people to try the game in the first place and get through that establishing period, though.

Edit: Lol@austin, timing. I’ll gladly drop it at this point though.

Also, sorry for any typos, I cut my goddamn finger open earlier and it’s hard as hell to type anything.

602

Which is all fine, but that’s making the game better, not making the game better, if that makes sense.

I still don’t really get how you can sit there and talk about how important production values are to drawing people in, then talk down on extra modes. Take a look at Soul Calibur’s CAS mode; people love that shit.

And. . . the entire point of the game doing a better job of teaching people how to play the game is to help get them to keep playing after you get over the initial “please buy our game” hurdle.

603

good graphics is kind of a broad phrase, which would explain why it caused so much controversy. I think the better term is “unique aesthetics” or art style. Skullgirls isn’t only being praised for its clever tutorial mode, but because it actually has a unique and inspired art style that doesn’t make it look generic like that other game Girlfight (ugh, lol). It’s unique visuals that pop out to the player, making even non-fighter fans give a game like Skullgirls a chance. this is why I think the game will do quite well on Steam (also because indie games are all the rage among Steam players anyway…even though SG isn’t an indie game, but I digress).

Of course, making a good fighting game goes beyond the art style. I’m pretty much repeating what xes said by drawing in the crowd with aesthetics, but executing good game design to make sure players keep playing the game, instead of dismissing it in a couple days or weeks, which happens with pretty much every fighting game in existence with casual players.

604

I in no way intend to talk down on extra modes, if I was doing that I went far astray somehow.

In total honesty I think they’re a useful, important part of keeping people playing the game until it ‘takes hold’ for real, if that makes sense.

Thinking back, probably the reason that Reno’s thing got the (somewhat unfair) reaction it did is because people seem to want to take ‘get better at teaching people the game’ as a replacement for actual needed reforms in the systems. There was a bit of projection there on my part (others have said that, but Reno didn’t)… but that’s where I was coming from.

So yeah, I’m willing to totally back down on that one and say his ideas are really quite good. They’re a useful piece of the puzzle, with the caveat that they don’t replace accessibility as a concern.

Maybe we can use the term ‘striking’ for that, because yeah it doesn’t have to be graphics, it just has to be something that draws peoples attention enough for them to try it.

605

A tutorial mode alone isn’t gonna cut it anyway. No matter how good a tutorial can be, not many players are gonna be motivated to play a game when they have to go through a “boot camp” first. As James Chen said, you need to go beyond a tutorial, and create fun experiences that can covertly teach new players how to apply their knowledge in real matches. Chen put the spotlight on the Super Smash Bros. series and how its mini-games and Brawl’s Subspace Emissary Mode taught players about spacing and maximizing damage output (Homerun Contest) and how to utilize your favorite character’s moves in a practical manner (Hit the Targets).

Fighting developers would do well to follow Smash’s game design, not in terms of its simplistic inputs for attacks (to a degree), but by providing rich and well-implemented extra modes for players to enjoy on a casual level without obviously lecturing them on “this is how YOU can compete with the big boys!”

This way, casuals have options. They can go into competitive play with all the knowledge they learned from their single-player experiences and go from there, or even stay at the casual level and continue having fun with the rest of the modes the game has to offer. Not everyone needs to play on a competitive level. That should never be the only goal for a fighting game, but it of course needs to be ONE of them as to not soil the established competitive demographic we have for the genre.

606

I agree with the point in the versus city article
As much as serious players are a minority in the overall scheme of fighting games sales, people who actually use tutorial isn’t much higher. Two days ago I was on a trolley and the person sitting in front of me was playing MVC3 on Vita and all he did was throw fireballs with ryu THE ENTIRE MATCH. Anyone who plays online has played people who aren’t even using beginner trial combos. The desire to improve is the desire to improve and if you don’t have it then you’re not going to use the tools given to you anyway.

Improving tutorials helps to slightly lower the gap between good players and people willing to go into training/tutorial modes, but it still not going to do much for people who aren’t ever going to go into those modes. Better tutorials isn’t the first gap that needs to be bridges IMO, the more major issue getting people to actually go into the tutorials, and for that I think the game companies should show players how deep the game goes. For this group I think video tutorials would be better than actual interactive tutorials. Either video tutorials or broken down match play videos.

If you can break the bubble that the guy throwing fireballs all day with ryu is living in, without beating him, you may have a chance to teach him. The problem when people come up against better players and learn the hard way what they don’t know then pride and salt cloud their judgement. I would make a video that that starts of by verbally saying that a lot of players only use special moves and supers and that this is a video designed to show them how much more there is to the game. Either make a brief video for each character and include it on the disk or at least have a way to access the videos online without leaving the game.

607

smash bros? hardcore? ha

608

mini-games to teach player fundamental things is actually a really good idea. It gets rid boring training mode problems for most players even though I personally like training mode. You can really work that idea forever, its a good one.

I’ve picked up brand new games from scratch on GGPO and the only thing I needed was an online scene and a good net code. It was actually really fun learning VS for like 3 years on GGPO. I understand training mode gets boring sooner or later for most players and even though I’m a HUGE training mode advocate, I didn’t sit in training mode @ all to learn VS. I sat online and just played competitive game after competitive game. I don’t think there is a better way to actually get someone to play a game other than a god like net code. Usually when I get an online game, the first thing I do is play online lol. Not read the tutorials. That is just the world we live in where people try shit first rather than read first.

@ some point, tutorials become a part of the equation but only after someone is satisfied with the game. If they can have a good experience online with competitive games, the tutorials are the next step for them. Its always been like that for me personally. I’ll just fuck with the game and if I like what I see, I start to read up on it.

It would be nice if you could access shoryuken.com for Capcom games through xbl\psn. Like if you signed onto xbl for sf4, you can access the sf4 section of srk and you could beef up the sf4 section. You can add shit like matches of the week, top player break downs of matches, watch recent tournaments, players can look up all the latest information about their character, look @ new conversations about the game like glitches or a recent tier list, watch recent videos of the characters they want to play and all of this is done on their console. I totally agree with Reno about how fighters online could be better. Only for the most dedicated is GGPO enough but I would like to have those other things too. srk.com and Capcom fighters would be a really cool partnership if Capcom could implement this website into their games. Its probably the next step for fighters online. Integrating the tournament community information somehow so players can access it as they play online. This allows the new players to not be 100% lost and all the information they need can be accessed through the game immediately. They don’t need to take extra steps like track srk down, sort through it and find what they need. Someone can literally stay up to date with their games only by playing the game on their console which is pretty much 100% ideal. Everything is within their reach

609

that’s actually a pretty damn good idea. Although I would imagine that would be easier to implement with PC games, hence why Starcraft II has so much online community features. Also, it would be great to have a fighting game equivalent of the Call of Duty Elite service or Halo Waypoint service, although I highly doubt companies have enough funds to do that.

610

I agree with this about video breakdowns for each character but your real point that I like is breaking modes to me which means bad habits. But the thing is there’s tons of videos that are out that shows breakdowns. There are people out there, that beginners or average players can subscribe to that can look at this stuff. I think there was a guy that just put something up about “Fraud Hugo’s” obviously I’m a Guy fan I look at most of Obey videos Kiryu, Beehol and Otinohoso matches it helped me out as far as improvements. I think FG’s are trying to do they’re part with trials, replays, and following certain players that’s why those features are in, I think someone made a point in the thread, what would we do if we didn’t have youtube or the technology we have now for FG’s?. We just have to do our part in paying attention and being committed to the game if we want to be serious. Trials are really meant to get that person use to the characters and see what they made of and if you like them enough to use them. You can always modify the combos to max out damage or again do what your comfortable with. But no matter what people want these trials to be…there’s always something more your gonna learn about your character via Youtube, SRK, or just playing another person. Also I think people in the FGC just have to broaden out the FG’s games if your losing in SF AE but really like Tekken then play Tekken, if your losing SF X Tekken, but winning in SkullG, then play SkullG it’s the same with Blaze and KOF XIII. I’m saying that to say everyone don’t have to follow what’s hot because everyone else is. I was one of those people can’t hang in BBCS EX or KOF XIII, but I can whoop some fucking ass in SF X Tekken/SF AE. Why? ** It’s fucking easy** that’s why I’m comfortable with the play but I still have to learn and be committed if I want to be the best or just better. Why do you all think the same people at these tournaments are winning? They stay committed, they learn, they don’t complain (not saying people are complaining in the thread) and play what they like. Good example Kaqn, Buppa, and Yutta in Blaze, and Daigo, Fuudo, Combofiend Poongko in SF AE/Marvel. It boils down to us to just learning guys, fighting games gets better if we get better. Reading this thread gave me that conclusion. Nice thread.

611

Don’t you think it sucks that out of every genre in video games, it’s fighting games that REQUIRE US to get better and do outside research when the games themselves could provide you with a decent learning experience? Doing homework shouldn’t be required to have fun. But if a game provided a proper tutorial to get players started, that’s when more options pop up if they truly want to go the extra mile and do research online, or simply stay playing the game on a basic level by themselves and going from there.

EDIT: changed sentence to “homework shouldn’t be required to have fun.”

612

I’ve already said things along the lines of this , but I’ll re-iterate my feelings again in a slightly different way.

Somewhere down the line, people are gonna have to put work in. And it’s going to be work, not flat out fun. You can enjoy the work (fuck yeah KoF XIII trials!) but to the majority of people, it’s still work; training room for hours, getting beat down hundreds of games, even using that (mostly fictional) tutorial mode that comes with the game.

When I first got SFIV, I realised that somewhere on the web, there was info. Dial it back. When I messed about with SFII emulated, I dug for info. Nah, let’s go even further back actually; When I played Team Fortress 2 on Xbox (don’t laugh, 100 hours with most characters), I dug like a fuckin’ mole on MDMA. I didn’t sit there and expect stuff to be handed to me, I found pleasure in reading up on shit. I’ve always done this; Halo 3, Final Fantasy’s. Tekken 3 on the Playstation in training mode with the moves list when I was about 10, because the internet as far as I knew was a thing for playing games on AOL, and there was only some English TV show with top players talking about the game in a deep fashion.

But then a lot of people are not going to get involved in this way. They’re just not. They don’t care about taking things this deep. FPS’s can be taken to an extreme level (shoutouts to Quake 3 with some MAD shit), but most players just play them to shoot some newbs. They don’t care about weapons or setups etc. You can give them all the resources they need to be a top player in any game, and they’ll reject them in favour of watching Friends reruns for the next ten years and fussing over the new iPhone. They don’t want to get competitive with videogames.

I don’t know why I’m like this. Maybe it’s some deep rooted insecurity where I have to go at everything I do 110% or be unsatisfied. Some people are not like that, especially with videogames. And maybe that’s okay. I don’t feel like fighting games have to explain themselves to people in a more complex way than they already are, because those who want to do the work will do the work, and those that won’t, won’t. I mean, it’s not even work for me. I’ll get off from my actual job and sit down in training mode and piss about with combos or setups for hours. This is all King Of Fighters XII is for me right now, not even playing games, just exploring the engine and characters.

That is never going to happen. Doesn’t matter how fun you make the game or how involved the tutorial or guides or whatever, there’s gonna be some lab rat ripping the game apart to get the advantage. And he’s gonna blow you up.

613

From the looks of things not really. SCV was more going back to basics. Cutting all the filter moves, re-introducing meter/supers from SE/SB and gearing it more towards 2D players yet keeping it SC-ish, cutting down clones and the cast list a bit. Casuals hate the game from what I’ve seen.

Tekken? Rage? Not a problem imo. Still hard as hell to learn. Even to a point where I can argue that Tekken is harder to play than VF. Of course people will disagree.

That’s almost impossible

614

Execution wise, Tekken is harder to learn across the entire cast compared to VF. But in VF, you need to like, see in to the future to play it, if you know what i mean.

615

Yeah, in the end there isn’t and shouldn’t be a substitute for going out there on your own and making serious effort to get better at the game. Taking that away would probably kill any kind of competitive hook the game has–not just a FG, but really any competitive game. If you can regularly beat opponents regardless of how much time/effort both of you have invested in the game, the value of competing is shot.

The best we can do, IMO, is keep giving players more/better tools to help them improve, and try to show more casual players what is actually going on in competitive play–and through that, hopefully why they would want to invest that time to get in on it.

616

oh shit sorry, scratch that comment about doing homework to be competitive, dunno what I was thinking there

yep yep. And the point I’ve been trying to get across is that a fighting game should still be fun on a basic/casual level for those who don’t put in the work

617

Truth.

lmao… You don’t need to be competitive to have fun. I had plenty of fun button mashing vs easy AIs, and unlocking shit with my friends in SCII. You need to understand that being “competitive” is a drive/goal. If you want a game that doesn’t really differentiate between those who want to be “competitive” and those who don’t, then go play DOA4 or SSBB.

You also need to understand that every game is exactly the same at a low level. My friends couldn’t play SC:BW worth a shit in Freshmen year high school, but that didn’t stop them from having fun. My friends and I can’t FRC in GG, but we still have fun even though we know we are scrubs at it. Regarding your sig, I think you need to reread your own article.

618

totally agreed. So developers just need to make sure the game is still fun on a low level, and if they can find ways to ease them into competitive play, that’s fine too, but it’s not the only reason people play fighting games. Like Harada said, “Take people who purchase Ferraris and Lamborghinis, for example. They’re not all necessarily speed freaks or would participate in time attacks or car races. They may just appreciate the fine leather seats, exterior beauty, the sound of the engine, or just the opportunity to control a vehicle with amazing horsepower. They’re not necessarily looking to compete against someone, but may just want to take the car out for a spin on some mountain roads, maybe try a few tight corners.
The satisfaction they get from learning how and being able to handle the car is important. They’re not just going to racetracks to get serious; they may enjoy a colorful stretch of street where they can stop by a cafe on the way. A lot of our players are like this.”

619

I positively agree with you 100%. But lets just say Blaze Blue EX 2 or SF AE 2013 comes out they give us software on disc to point out weakness and flaws of every characters, frame work, negative, positive, advantage, disadvantages on block, what’s safe, for each character, whose has the better Cross-ups and also they give you levels of play you can walk through via the software tutorial etc. Then lets say you sit back and say " I want to put this info to work on each character you can put those character against each other at high level play, AI is only doing what it can to show you what this character is worth vs human. Now you sit back you download this in your mind and say I like Ryu based off what I’ve seen so far but I like Ken better because based off this data and tutorial he has the better pokes, range his focus is nice, crosses gets thumbs up. But what happens if you play online? You get blown up…blown up alot…blown up becomes blown out! It is fun now? I ask that question because as players we can only have so much fun with a fighting that it becomes frustrating cause deep down we want to win we want from D to A+ that’s just flat out pride, also because we’ve seen so much videos and know big time players some of us want that a piece of that advance play. But you got what you wanted from the software right? So now what? You go to SRK, Youtube, Iplaywinner, Level Up just to do homework. And you right it shouldn’t require us to get better but because I’m casual trying to compete (when I can) at some point you just get tired of losing when your a fan of Fighting. I had a friend who was killing me in SF, Blaze CT, I mean blowning me up, I got pissed watch vids took advantage of gamechariot, BB CS dropped came back took that broken Ragna and taught him what Inferno Divider was all about it meant his ass. Same with Tekken 6 took adavantage of the Ghost play watch vids, SRK mained Lars=winning. SF AE, Took Guy graduate of Bushinryu, my friend barely wins. truth be told he hardly plays, but I don’t care point is he’s not blowing me up *anymore. *Now If I want to go the extra mile I go to venues. My point is homey eventually regardless of your tools have you still may need outside help to your point. It’s inevitable.

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRExQAmRwxlonxpb3r_JIqlAUb2RK5gDuClKAfkUK4dew2NZe2q

620

yes yes, it was my mistake for saying you shouldn’t be required to do homework to be competitive, I’ve already omitted that part in my previous post, lol

My points still stand about making a fighting game fun on a casual level however