Dat SF4… soon to become a respectable Capcom fighter? History shows it always takes them around 3-5 revisions to produce that classic hardcore longevity.
something else that tutorial mode would help with is those oft-mentioned “afraid to go online and get bodied” jitters. there are a lot of players who wanna play the game but have a real fear of going online and looking stupid. you eventually get over it but that first hurdle can be a big deal. giving them the tutorial mode I suggested earlier gives him a solid confidence about having the basic skills to compete. That coupled with the knowledge that they would be matched up against players close to their level from the get go can only mean good things for people trying out online play and I would imagine would help a lot in player retention. A lot of players either never end up trying online or go online for five games, get bopped, and give up on the game right there.
I’ve always thought that sliders would be a great way to get the computer AI to be more useful and help practice real life situations. I mean, they can make digital athletes act like their real life counterparts, so why not have a set of sliders that would make the computer AI act and play more like a human? As it stands right now, the AI for AE is pretty dumb, mixed in with psychic reversals and wake-up ultras. Imagine if you could toggle the amount of jumping, throwing, zoning and normals the computer did or used. Imagine if you could toggle how frequently the computer went for ultra, or fadc’d into it. Having the ability to set the AI to act a specific way would def help players get a better grip on situationals and all the random stuff that happens in a split second, in between combos and the neutral game.
Well. I just want to put up a point.
In chess, if you want to move your knight to king bishop 3, do you just do it? or do you have to go back for 2 seconds, forward, back, forward, and then move the piece, placing it on the board, to the extract frame? Or similarly, you got to tap your hand on the chessboard, to a frame perfect rhythm before you move your rook for the mate.
What would happen if we bypass the execution phase of SF? It would then become a game of Phase 2 - knowledge and Phase 3 - Adaptation.
Instantly gratification, the ability for a newbie or casual to **do what they want, when they want, **would speed up the learning curve, and allow them to immerse into the game, at least reach the meta game.
I believe ultimately at the highest level of any game, like, chess, poker, SF, it comes down to the psychology.
They have Yun there with easy target combos which can even start from hitconfirms, and also other characters who have BnB combos with freaking 3-4 frame links in them - not particularly execution heavy if you ask me, as much as I like fighters with easily accesible combos which dont require perfect timing because it gives new players a much better fighting chance and at top levels the best players will be the ones who are REALLY the best at fighting, leave SF for what it is, you have plenty other fighters out there with magic series and target combos, here the execution adds another layer of depth as to what one can consider skillful.
Then you’d be playing magic the gathering, or any of the turn-based RPGs. I mean, if you’re going to get rid of the dexterity element, then just play actual chess, or project x-zone. Lowering and lowering the bar until whatever you want to excel at is something accessible to everyone is exactly that…lowering the bar. Just being smart at something doesn’t entitle one to be able to say they’re good at it, only that they have a good understanding. Phil Jackson was a decent player, but a helluva coach, and vice versa, MJ is the best, but ran his team to the ground.
In theory, taking the physical execution out of something shouldn’t affect the overall enjoyment we get from the game, but in reality, it’s the little challenges we overcome and the leveling up that we do that make each victory that much more fulfilling and our accomplishments actual accomplishments. I mean, why does anyone do anything seemingly extracurricular when there’s obviously an easy alternative?
First of all i am happy that my comments provoked a real discussion on the subject. I also am happy that at least some of the points seem universally agreed.
A tutorial has been suggested instead of dumbing down the control. I completely agree with a mission mode that takes a few hours to complete and teaches mechanics one by one (but doesn’t let the player get stuck because he can’t perform some motion or combo). The key here is to make long enough as it will feel like a “campaign mode”, not label it as tutorial (as everybody hates tutorials) and to refine it as in to actually teach something. This would lube the entry into the game for everybody and its 100% necessary.
On the same vein, matchmaking does help but a good matchmaking leads to stagnation in ranking on the ladder. If you are always matched with players close to your own skill, in the long run, you will still have a 50/50 win/lose rating, feeling that you will never be able to advance in ranking even as you actually advance in skill. You never get to stomp newer players with your newly aquired skill though inhibiting the feeling of progress. The only people that will break out of this circle will be the outliers and not everybody is an outlier and outliers are few and far between. In my opinion, while matchmaking IS a good addition, some randomness is necessary in order for people who really advanced to meet newbs to stomp to let them know they actually advanced. Or some other game mode where players of all skills meet. A perfect matchmaking will create the same feeling you got while leveling up in Oblivion - no matter if you grinded for 16 levels and got the most awesome gear, the rats in the dungeon you started the game will still kicked your butt because they were leveling up with you
However, those are not enough. Dumbing down the game CONTROLS further is necessary for mass market appeal. Yes, SF4 is easier than SF2, but still the skill floor is very high. It might not be for people that put years of dedication into fighting games, but it is for most people that didnt. Dexterity is either natural or trained. Most people dont have it naturally and that causes them to quit the game fast, before they are able to train it.
Someone above said that Mortal Kombat is a not a game design good. I disagree, as personal opinion, and actually believe that as far as controls and game modes go, MK9 is genius and the best designed fighting game of time. I dont personally play MK9 because i dislike the graphics and the cheap gore, but the fighting system is the most noob friendly ever created, with enough depth so that low level players are free to high level players but the game is not frustrating to play for nobody at any level. Execution and mechanical skill is still there, albeit of a smaller importance than in SF and faster to achieve level-ups. Strategy though i actually believe is more complex than SF as the system, to compensate for the lack high dexterity needs it became deeper because of a string of special moves (teleport hits, faster fireballs, air combos etc). That makes is a good game in the eyes of the people that buy and critics tend to agree. Also the game matched the sales of SF4. And Mortal Kombat, as a franchise, is not as big and respected as the street fighter series and doesnt have the same level of cult following and history. Yeah it was a fad in the 90s, but a series of crappier games lowered its value and it never took off in Asia. The same model, applied to a Street Fighter style game would make a good SF game. It is not 100% necessary that SF game is from the main series or canon for that matter. Can be a side game to the main series, exploring the f2p model
Someone else said that that the execution challenges that you overcome are what its fulfilling and i agree, but i dont believe that this is main reason people play the game. I actually believe that this is the main reason most people quit the game (aside from the really hardcore, which i totally respect) - because they cannot overcome little challenges to get that fulfillment.
Disclaimer: I am one of those noobs that are not able to overcome the execution challenge, in no way good at fighting games. I just love them and would like to do good with less effort and most importantly less time spent between level-ups, and like me there are others. I believe that a lot of others. And the success of a game is based on either the number of copies sold or people playing the game. Opening the elitist circle up for scrubs will lead to more success on both models.
Dumbing down the controls is not necessary. Anyone can play this game, period.
And I would like to get paid a million dollars to stay home and do nothing, but that’s not happening.
Seriously, how is that an acceptable mentality and approach to anything in life? Yes, it’s a game, and to you it’ may JUST a game, but to others, it may be more. There’s nothing elitist about execution, but there’s something to be said about someone who admits to not wanting to put in the time and effort but want to do as well as someone who’s put years of practice into something. Wtf? Those folks aren’t elitist, you’re just lazy.
There’s success that’s measured in sales, and success measured in acclaim and actual substance. If you lack the substance, then don’t ask to be a part of something substantial. There are a lot of scrubs in the world, and the only thing separating them from the skilled players isn’t a lower bar or a more forgiving game…it’s their mentality and approach. They acknowledge their shortcomings and actively work on them, they don’t expect things to get easier and easier until they can get it. Your approach is one that wants to be catered to, where the reward comes to you. I hope that changes, I sincerely do.
“EVO MOMENT”
I’m not really sure it’s possible for me to disagree with a post more.
The first thing you get when you make a SF game as easy as CoD is a really, really fucking shitty Street Fighter game. Fuck, CoD is already a really, really fucking shitty FPS. Yeah great, it has a lot of people playing it, but is the community good? No. It’s an Xbro/fratbot shooter that is almost totally devoid of competitive merit. Our community staple tournaments have no reason to exist if the games have no competitive merit. Holding CoD up as a gold standard for competitive gaming is extremely questionable.
SF4 might be the hardest game you’ve ever played, but then you probably aren’t an experienced tournament player. CvS2, MvC2, 3S, ST… basically every 2D fighting game that has ever been played in tournaments have higher execution requirements. And frankly, most of us old farts would rather be playing most of those games if we still could; they are simply better for a variety of reasons.
To me, the questions people should be asking is this: Are the execution requirements of SF4 too high that someone who has never played a fighting game competitively would never have a reasonable chance of competing at high level? Considering all the new players we’ve seen rise up in the ranks over the SF4 generation, the answer to that is a resounding no.
We don’t need to dumb this shit down any further.
Seriously. I’m actually insulted at the notion that a million scrubs duking it out is better than a dedicated few who choose to dedicate their time and effort towards a passion.
You want to water this genre down so you can join in and make top 8 at EVO? Please god let me never see the day no child left behind becomes the approach fighting games take.
Ok, lets move away from making the game easier as it seems to please nobody and focus on something else. Lets say that the game is as easy as SF4 in its current form, has social features, competitive ladders and an awesome tutorial. And its not free to play.
What more can be done to get people to play it more than 2 weeks ?
All of those things are good suggestions. Still the biggest challenge that fighting games have always had in terms of growing communities is internet service. Fighting games usually pretty much suck balls online.
Competitive ladders work a lot better for games like LoL and SC2 because the games are a lot less sensitive to lag. In countries as big as the US, regions as big as Europe and Asia, and places with shitty internet backbones, eg, everywhere but Japan and South Korea, online play is only ever going to be so good.
One way to try to try to address this is GGPO/GGPO-style netcode for everything and actually giving players ping numbers instead of bars.
Ultimately though, expanding the player base really has to come from local communities.
More story elements, more content like costumes, more online events, better netcode, more offline events.
Biggest of all, imo, is still teaching people the finer points. Non execution related concepts.
Dota 2 gives also the possibility to see the Hero build or the guide for the hero, even during a game. These builds are made by the community. So it means the casual players can get through the game an insight, how the hero works. Don´t know, if this could also work in a fighting game, of course not during a game. Would like to see the option, to download setups for the characters and let them replay at the training mode, lol.
I’m just gonna answer the question, without defining “smart” or “good” 
These newbie players don’t want to play magic the gathering, or turn-based RPGs. They want to play SF, as they find it interesting at first. Though I suspect, its the appeal of wanting to compete with their friends, who are **INTO **SF.
Also I find it kind of insulting to the game, that SF is defined purely based on its execution. It has far more depth than that, that’s why even if you remove the Phase 1: Execution barrier, you still have the game of SF AND not chess or RPG.
By making it accessible to the masses, you will skyrocket the game’s appeal. Thus, we are addressing the original poster’s query of getting more casual fans as opposed to dedicated. I feel most opposing thoughts in this thread, are concerned about disrupting the balance between execution, knowledge and psychology. And rightly so, as it rewards differing abilities to differing degrees.
It boils back down to instant gratification, people continue to do things through enjoyment. But if your new, and getting completely dominated and virtually obliterated by your superior opponents, it doesn’t positively reinforce SF as an enjoyable activity? But imagine if you had a fighting chance, and could win? That’s the power of poker - skill brings strong players back, but luck brings weak players back!
And yes, believe it or not, people can be that dedicated, like learning guitar, piano or saxophone. But often, they aren’t always competing against someone else. It’s a shame, that the very nature of a game of SF, entails one winner and consequently one loser.
Only those who are truly wise, let go of the outcome, but instead focus on the path.
- For the record, I wonder if the world’s current best players could still be able to win, against a newer generation with virtually no execution barrier. It would certainly change the value of the relative skills required to play this game - rewarding and placing a higher emphasis on mental abilities over motor abilities.
On another note to address the topic of getting more casual fans into SF.
I believe in game modes, centered around NON COMPETITION, like the side scrolling arcade beater genres such as Final Fight. Would entice casual fans. You select your character and go through 16 levels of beating thugs, executing and performing your moves, combos, supers and ultras, and at the end of each level, you fight a BOSS character one on one.
It showcases all the skills of SF, and if executed well, would be a good addition.
Mortal Kombat: Shaolin Monks
Back when I was a casual player, I preferred Tekken over Street Fighter because of the extra modes…
e.g. Survival Mode… Tekken Bowling… Tekken Force… etc.
I was happy with Alpha 3 on Dreamcast because of all the extra modes. I gave up Tekken for Alpha 3 back then, and never really learned to play it. Then I got a hold of Marvel 2 and I grew out of a casual into a competitive player.
I wonder if those silly extra modes would be enough to hold people’s interest.
Oh yeah, a create-a-fighter would be fun too. A few friends of mine got into Tekken Tag 2 because of the Combot customization. That’s literally all they do, customize Combot and have mirrors. Those extra modes are fun.