Hooking EVERYTHING up to a modern HDTV - A Guide (Update for the Framemeister coming soon!)

Tech Talk
21

If you don’t have S-Video inputs on your TV in the first place then you can’t hook it up. As you saw before, you basically used a switchbox as a S-Video to Composite transcoder, and you lost the benefits of S-Video when you did that. I guess in theory you could use a S-Video to Component transcoder (I don’t know of any offhand, but surely they exist) for rare cases like the 2600 where you can get S-Video but not RGB from it.

If you’d be willing to either send a console out to get modded, or buy a pre-modded console, you will open up a lot of capability. For some consoles (like the 2600) it’s the only way you’re gonna get good video from them.

22

I hadn’t thought of Atari stuff… Let’s keep the oldest thing at NES right now.

Give me links to people who mod and to a 2 input component switcher (because I can only find 4 input ones and they’re all pricier than the one I posted)

23

The NES is not gonna get better without modding, the PPU chip in it generates Composite video directly and other than that the only output you get is RF*. Like I mentioned before, you can buy a Famicom Titler which has S-Video, but you can’t use S-Video. The Titler does RGB too, but not without a simple mod. You can graft a RGB-capable PPU into the NES, but it’s an extensive mod (expensive too, but cheaper than buying a Titler).

*Well actually, France had a NES that output a RGB signal via SCART, but guess what, it was derived from the Composite signal, so despite hooking up through RGB it was no clearer than Composite. Garbage In, Garbage Out.

For modders you have a number of sources, I bet most people here in Tech Talk could do stuff like S-Video modding a Genesis, personally I’m familiar with a lot of the techies over on the Neo-Geo.com forums and there’s a fair deal of console modders there who would sell their services. As for a 2-input switchbox, I can’t name any offhand, but this was just a theoretical explanation, you could use for example a 4-input switchbox and plug in 2 more 4-input switchboxes to it and you’d have 8 inputs and two blank ones (so this would actually give you 10 inputs, 4 each on the switchboxes hooked up to the switchbox and 2 on the “root” switchbox). Actually if you really can’t find a big switchbox, I bet you could find a modder to build you one, you only need passive components to rig it up so it doesn’t really take any skill other than mounting parts on an enclosure.

24

And the NES/SNES idea? Any of those around that can do this job?

Also, is lag added with any of your other ideas? Lag is a major deciding factor and if it adds lag but puts in better picture I wanna write that.

As for your component idea: I like it, except when I was shopping around before it seemed like which model you got mattered and it mattered that it was powered as well.

25

No lag if you keep it SD*. Everything is done with analog components, which don’t enter a buffer at any point or anything like that.

For the SNES you can get a RGB cable and feed that into a RGB to Component transcoder. As for NES, see above.

*Other than your TV’s input lag, but that’s besides the point.

26

My TV is sub 1 frame and figure you add a few more for the older stuff it’s extremely good all things considered.

27

Did SRK just die a while ago? Oh boy.

Anyway…
As for the switchers, I am pretty sure that the powered aspect only matters if you are using long runs of cables. If you use only one switchbox and hook up component directly from the console, to the switchbox, to the TV, using 6ft cables, you’ll have 12ft of cable per console, which should still be OK (unless you have something producing interference, having twice the amount of cable could certainly introduce/amplify its effects). Theoretical worse case scenario, you have a 6ft RGB cable going into a transcoder, 6ft Component cable going into one switchbox, 6ft of more Component cable going into another switchbox, then 6ft of yet more Component cable going into your TV… then with 24ft of cable for your signal to traverse, you could have quality issues by the end of it, and having powered switchboxes will only fix it beyond the transcoder (so if the 12ft of cable total going from RGB console to transcoder output already has an impure signal, it won’t be improved). If this ends up being an issue it would be a trivial job for a modder to shorten your RGB cable (or perhaps you could specifically find some in a shorter size), and you can for sure use shorter-than-6-foot lengths of Component cables.

To make matters more complicated, some powered switchers can introduce their own interference :confused: so you would need to make sure to buy one that is noted to not do this.

28

SRK RESSURECTION!!
The one I have linked is the cheapest and SRK approved option (I asked, they answered, it works gewd).

Thank you for that visual! And this just begs the question:

DanAdamKOF, is that SCART setup better than your proposed RGB to component dealio?

It seems that it takes care of the 240p “invalid signal” issue, does RGB to component do the same?

29

the very last section connecting to the lcd is not necessarily unless you want scanlines

30

Thanks for the… repeated visual?

31

That SCART setup involves a scaler, I have no personal experience with them but here’s what I can tell you.

First of all, if your TV has bad lag (let’s say 4f) for SD inputs, but if the scaler’s processing lag (I don’t think any work entirely in the analog spectrum) is low (let’s say 2f), and your TV has little lag on the input you hook up the scaler to (let’s say 1f), then you end up with less lag (3f total).

Secondly, if your TV looks bad with SD signals (entirely possible and likely), the scaler could produce an image at your TV’s native resolution (or a higher resolution, I don’t think the pictured scaler can output 720p for example) which needs no/less processing and could produce an image more to your liking. Most TVs have filters and the like to produce an acceptable image when someone hooks up analog cable through RF, which will produce a better image (to most people) than an unprocessed image, but such filtering may distort retro games beyond your liking.

Thirdly, the scanline generator produces a “CRT effect” that some people like, and I doubt you will ever see this built into a TV, so that’s one definite benefit that this setup has (as long as you desire that effect). Scanline generators use analog means to manipulate the signal so they do not introduce lag.

If you have a modded PS2 (softmod is fine) you can try GSModeSelector to have the PS2 itself redraw the image in 480p, 720p or 1080i, or several VGA resolutions, which will give you most of the benefits of the above setup (and possibly a few additional benefits). It would only lack scanline capability (unless you add on a scanline generator), and regular VGA output (it outputs Sync On Green VGA which most displays don’t support, however you can get a Sync On Green VGA to regular VGA adapter (which is analog) and that will work fine). GSModeSelector can output in several VGA resolutions as well, which is nice if you have a LCD so you can match its native resolution, the above scaler also does this).

The above only works with PS2 of course and it’s clunky has many caveats, the scaler setup is for sure a more robust and of course more generalized setup. However I mention it because it is a free (if you have a modded PS2) way to dabble with scaling retro consoles without much sunken cost (I hate to use such a term for PS2 but it basically is retro by now).

32

According to that the SCART method will actually help reduce lag?

Will the component method take care of the PS2’s 240p issue?

Because right now here’s what I’m thinking and I know it works I just want to know if it’s the BEST way for lag and picture.

3 component switchers (4 inputs each for a total of 10 available inputs)

SNES,GEN,N64(After mod),Saturn,Wii,Neo Geo, ETC.

1 VGA switch (Needs approval on model) (with 2 or 4 inputs)

PS2 with above setup
Dreamcast via VGA box

I wouldn’t recommend the modding method. Far too complex with which games look like shit in which resolution etc.

33

pick up one of these scaler
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l2736&_nkw=CGA%2FEGA%2FYUV&afsrc=1
pick up a plug and play scart to vga sync cleaner
http://wp1114205.wp150.webpack.hosteurope.de/xtcmodified/product_info.php?products_id=15&XTCsid=son1n47cjiu0mjflde6rioor56
ps2 scart
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=scart+cable+ps2&_sacat=0&_odkw=scart+cable&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313
saturn
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=scart+cable+saturn&_sacat=0&_odkw=scart+cable+ps2&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313
snes/gamecube/n64
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=scart+cable+nintendo&_sacat=0&_odkw=scart+cable+saturn&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313

and call it a day cheapest easiest method to get old consoles to display on a monitor/lcd yes you may have a frame or so of lag

34

The SCART-to-scaler method above, it will only reduce lag if the overall lag of the scaler + your TV’s lag on its input is less than the lag you get when hooking up a console directly to your TV.

I can’t answer whether “the component method” (do you mean RGB to Component, without a scaler?) will help your TV, but since this method does not involve a scaler, if your TV is incompatible with 240p on all of its inputs, then it will not help you.

You will want to determine how you will hook up each console. If you are doing RGB to component (I’m going to assume you will use the scaler and scanline generator too) then your switchers might go like this…
SCART switcher for RGB consoles
SCART switcher output hooks up to scaler input
Scaler VGA output hooks up to VGA switcher, alongside DC VGA box
VGA switcher output hooks up to scanline generator (why not let the DC use it?)
Scanline generator output hooks up to TV
Additionally, component switcher for consoles like Wii, Xbox, PS2 (you could switch it between component and RGB depending on whether you will play a 480p game, or perhaps use 2 PS2s (one only for 480p always hooked up through component, one for 480i and 240p always hooked up through RGB (then whatever)), for 480p games (I’m assuming a few things: the scaler won’t accept a 480p Component signal as input, the scanline generator won’t accept a component signal as input, and that you don’t want to mess with analog means of converting component to VGA)

It can get contrived quite easily.

edit: Rooser makes a point, to further complicate things, some consoles don’t output a direct RGB signal but instead a RGB signal with composite video as it sync signal, most PAL TVs with SCART are happy to accept this signal, but a lot of other equipment will require the use of a sync cleaner (it’s analog so no lag) to get RGB + pure sync.

35

So for this, you gotta buy SCART cables for each system hook up the SCART switcher to the VGA switcher, then put the scan line generator on the other end of the VGA switcher and that goes directly to the TV?

I like it, I’d like to know whether or not you recommend it over the RGB to component method you mentioned earlier (or at least give the advantages/disadvantages) also, the PS2. Figure you’ve only got 1 PS2 (not gonna write the guide REQUIRING 2, I don’t care how amazing that sounds). what are we doing with it?

Can’t thank you guys enough! This guide is gonna be so helpful.

36

yes every system
you dont have to have a slg its your choice
this is a rgb method any system older than a ps2 needs a scaler since you dont have s-video and you dont like composite

37

The generator is cool. I’ll be using it but the guide is gonna list it as optional yet badass (OYBA).

I can list S-Video easy. I don’t like composite because no way in hell is that the best way by any means.

The method with the scaler seems simpler and cheaper then the RGB to Component method, anything we’re losing out on by taking this path?

38

The scaler doesn’t output in SD component (right?), so you wouldn’t be able to, for example, hook up a Genesis to a SDTV with Component inputs. But on the flip side, if you did RGB to Component, you wouldn’t have a scaler for your HDTV.

I mentioned above some advantages a scaler has, if you think I’ve overlooked something or need to clarify something please say so.

What you do with the PS2 is up to you. If you’re fine with only having 480i/240p support then run it through the scaler. But for some games (Thunder Force VI immediately comes to mind, so gorgeous) you will miss out on all the detail that you gain when running it in 480p. Using a game in its native 480p will look better than scaling its 480i version.

If you wanna get contrived with the PS2, you can do this… run one PS2 with component outputs, use cable splitters to feed one half into a component switchbox, and use that for 480p games. For the other half, use a Component to VGA cable (analog cable that just gives it a different connector, not a scaler) to feed it into the scaler chain. Use the scaler’s output for non-480p games and the direct output for 480p (and up, such as GT4) games.

The above doesn’t just apply to PS2, the Xbox could also be hooked up this way, though the vast majority of its game library is in 480p (and I think with a softmod you can force every game to output in 480p, but don’t quote me on that).

One thing to keep in mind is you will need to switch your PS2 between RGB and YPbPr modes each time you go between 240p/480i RGB and 480p Component (yPbPr).

Or you can get a Sync On Green RGB to VGA cable (entirely analog) and use that in your chain to run your PS2 through VGA for 480p games. Actually the Xbox has Sync On Green too, so same applies for that. Don’t think this would work for games above 480p as I’m not sure if your TV will handle VGA running in 720p or 1080i, YMMV. But those games are few and far between for retro consoles (GT4, that Matrix game, and Atari Anthology are the only ones that come to mind immediately).

39

I wanna understand that. I’m trying to understand that. I think I understand that. But clarification would avoid a lot of confusion and brain farts.

40

I’m just listing facts as I know them
why would you even talk about s-video common knowledge theres no reason to explain s-video is better than composite
facts
most displays do not accept 240p or less genesis snes n64 psx saturn nes anything older if you dont want to use s-video you have to use a scaler
Scalers range from the cheap-o ebay gbs-8220 $40 to $2000
The one of the best scaler around for games is xrgb 3 are around $300-$500 retail