Hacking the ST rom

Classic Fighting Games Super Street Fighter II Turbo
241

You have got to be the only Honda player who thinks Honda’s Super doesn’t need to be buffed. At least Blanka’s Super can go through meaty fireballs!

Ryu’s Super is not overpowered vs Guile and DJ. When Ryu has meter, Guile and DJ simply have to change their tactics, tone down the number of fireballs they throw, be careful of whiffing pokes for no reason, etc. But Guile and DJ would have to do the same thing if Cammy got meter, or if Fei got meter, or if Bison got meter. This doesn’t mean that Cammy, Fei or Bison’s Supers are overpowered. Therefore Ryu’s Super is not overpowered.

Saying that Ryu’s “super tilts the game heavily in favor of Ryu” is incredibly misleading. If matchup numbers are anything to go by Ryu vs DJ is at best 6-4 Ryu and vs Guile 5-5. That is certainly not my definition of overpowered. I would call O.Sagat vs Cammy overpowered, or Vega’s Wall Dive vs anybody knocked down overpowered, or 50% unblockable Air Tatsus overpowered.

242

The big points have been hit it seems.

Sim doesn’t need a reversal, Rog’s super needs a nerf somewhere, blanka’s super needs something. I can see how walking forward with honda can hurt jumps, but what about fierce fireballs, at a certain range that fat hitbox is a liability and you either block or get knocked out of the air.

I’m on the fence about ryu’s super. It gives a guy who already zones well another powerful distance tool.

Chun li gets to keep stored super because its fun?

243

Who cares if Blanka can go through meaty fireballs? He gets punished anyways. Honda’s super makes Rog think thrice before doing a low rush after stopping a headbutt with a jab, and that’s pretty big. Otherwise Honda would be eating chip for free all day, and being able to move forward against shotos and Chun without being jumped in all day is nice. It can also be used in combos and can give you the final damage you need to kill a zoner. It’s not great, but people exaggerate it’s uselessness.

Ryu vs. Guile is not 5-5. One of the reasons is the super. Same with DeeJay. He out fireballs them normally, but once he gets super things get quite hard for the chargers. Of course you can’t compare DJ, Cammy, Fei or Bison’s supers with Ryu’s, they are nowhere near as good to punish fireballers. Otherwise their matchups with Ryu and other qcf zoners would be closer.

244

N.Guile vs N.Ryu is not even; it’s in Ryu’s favor, primarily due to the super. The difference between this situation and one like Cammy’s where her super can also limit his options is that Ryu and Guile were even before the meter was filled.

Ryu’s super losing some damage output is enough for him. Frankly, it’s the other characters’ shortcomings that should be addressed in this regard.

Boxer’s super, though, is too safe, and does too much damage for the ground it covers while invincible. In my version, I toned the damage down, and added some recovery frames, and it’s still one of the best in the game. No way I would slow it down or not allow it to blow across the screen, though; that’s really what defines it. It’s the other stuff that puts it over the top that should be looked into.

245

Well, N.Ken and N.Sagat do lose or tie with Chun, Dee Jay, Guile, Fei (Ken only) and Cammy (N.Ken only). Ryu’s super really changes matches where he can use it on reaction. These are Ryu, Ken, mostly. Guile and Dee Jay have to be carefull about prediction supers, sort of like when Ryu can use a Tatsu to catch Guile while he’s doing a Sonic Boom. That aside, I believe he mostly has a better anti-air and shennanigans, such as short x3 super.

That said, I still think it would be better if toned down. Same applies to Rog’s supers, which are signifficantly better than Ryu’s and much harder to avoid, among several other advantages. As for Chun’s, I feel cheated for damage when I eat it, but it is certainly worse than Ryu’s and Balrog’s.

O.Sagat and Dhalsim are too good. First of all, correcting all bugs which make ST O.Sagat much stronger than SSF2 Sagat would be a good start: he has way too many cancels. Second, toning down the stun on hit diagonal jumps - as other shotos - and adjusting the recovery and hitboxes on the tigers. Dhalsim would be much more manageable with a bit more start-up and less priority on the drills, st.RH punishable on reaction, as in WW, and adjusted priority on his close normals, which have not been thought to be used from a distance and have invulnerable limbs all around.

None of those changes would really change the core of ST. I don’t think getting it more balanced is any huge task.

246

Blitzfu said:
“Why should Ryu’s Super have invincibility? Cuz every other Super in the game has start-up invincibility and Ryu should not be treated any differently. There are already a ton of attacks that can beat Ryu’s Super cleanly, and even some that if done at point blank range can make the Super whiff completely (eg Chun’s close Strong/close Forward, Vega’s crouch Strong, Cammy’s close Forward, Ryu’s Rushing Fierce, etc).”

So ryu has to have an invincible super as well, just because everyone else has one. Even if it means retaining many game situations in which the invincible super will clearly give that character an easy 100% solution to whatever the opponent does. If you think that makes for good gameplay then i don’t know what to tell you.

And if you think that the “getting to point blank range to make ryu miss his super” is a good enough tactic to offset the advantages the invincible super gives ryu, i think you need to review your tactics and strategy. You try and get within point blank range of ryu when he has that super and you are already putting yourself at high risk of eating that super. Not to mention getting in close potentially opens you up to all the other things he can do like throw, DP, sweep xx FB etc. etc. It’s such bad play that i am not sure why you would even bring that point blank option up as any kind of a counter to offset the advantages of ryu’s super.

Cronopio: “No, Rog’s super isn’t fine as it is. It’s damaging, it has tons of invincibility, it’s safe. Something has to give. Invincibility not, because that would hurt him a lot vs. Sim and O.Sagat. But less damage and some sort of unsafety would be good.”

I would argue no invincibility (as i see it he has enough tools to get around the problems he has getting in) and safe on block but yes, something has to change. It would also depend on if dhalsim can be nerfed and if a potential o.gat nerf (more fireball recovery) would make boxer’s life easier even without an invincible super.

Blitzfu: “Supers are not overpowered in ST. The main purpose of a Super IMO is to give the character an option to get out of a situation that they otherwise wouldn’t be able to overcome (eg Sagat has nothing that will beat Ryu or Ken’s meaty Shoryuken except his Super, Cammy’s Super is invaluable for pressuring fireball characters to decrease the number of projectiles). That’s why I’m fine with all Supers having invincible start-up.”

Wrong. Try and understand the importance of positioning before you claim you need a super to get you out of something that “you cannot overcome”. Shotos/sagat: why would you let ryu/ken get close enough to you (and land a knockdown on you) that you would even need a super to avoid the meaty SRK in the first place? Sagat’s game mostly revolves around zoning with fireballs and normals. If ryu and ken got close enough to you to land a knockdown on you you’ve already made two mistakes you should not have. And the cammy example: so because you don’t know how to avoid/counter fireballs you need a move that will deter them from throwing fireballs (or most other normals for that matter) so you have a free ticket to get into her good range.

Lots more points to be addressed here, more to come.

247

dogberry, this thread is about hacking. If you want to bitch about supers, and aren’t planning on actually doing anything with ROMs and such, it doesn’t belong here. Same goes for everyone else.

248

Well… Some things about ST that don’t work that probably should

Cammy- The rolling knuckle doesn’t quite work as intended, making it very hard to get in. Seems like an unfinished move.

Ken- Srk’s other than light not really doing their job (missing on combos etc). HDR “fixed” them but the damage was a bit much, same with reversal super. The ST team probably did this on purpose, but it’s annoying.

Honda- super is damaging yet kinda weaksauce. A super that can be stopped… by a jab?
I don’t quite know the extent of having a better Honda super other than making some matchups better (vs. fireballers) and others worse.

249

Its not about hacking per se but what we can do with he hacks. If we can discuss possibilities of balance changes, then why should supers be any different? I think when hacking balance changes into ST discussion is healthy. Lots and lots of discussion… Followed by implementation Followed by lots of playtesting… Followed by lots and lots more discussion

I think really the only reason why this discussion shouldnt fit in here is if

  1. Other balance changes arent discussed here as well keeping this thread purely technical. Or
  2. The changes being discussed arent possible at this time. Or in the forseeable future (and again this would apply to other balance changes in this thread right now as well… Not just supers

I have lots more to say about supers but ill hush for now and lurk a bit before delving more into it if the topic doesnt die off

I do have a question about o. Cammy’s new mixup though. I think her spin knuckle is slower than ryus overhead. Now i can react to ryu’s overhead and dont consider that a mixup. If anything i consider that borderline. Now cammy’s spinknuckle is slower isit not? (again, going to playtest this wih people soon) am i misunderstanding the mixup? Its safe cannon drill (low) / spinknuckle (high) but can you give an example where this is a guess and cant be reacted to? I know you said its a tough mixup. But i cant picture a situation where this will work. you left the speed of the sbf the same right? (i think most ppl can srk a sbf on reaction)

I know i might just be misunderstanding how you intended the mixup to be used but the way i see it, i think she needs that sbf speed boost you gave her in the new version

250

Building meter through blocked attacks would be nice instead of only special moves building it.

251

Oh, for sure; I’m all for discussion about a given topic. There’s a difference between that, and just calling everyone wrong or stupid for holding a subjective viewpoint, especially when you haven’t contributed anything directly to the hacking topic, and don’t seem to even care about it.

Sweet; thanks for taking the time to evaluate some of the changes. O.Cammy’s spin knuckle allows her to cover ground more safely than any other overhead in the game. (For those who haven’t seen it, she has a bit more startup invulnerability than N.Cammy, is two frames faster to the hit once she hits the ground, has her foot hurtboxes somewhat recessed as she swings to hit, has the same hitbox extension as HDR Cammy, and the first hit of the combo must be blocked high.)

It’s not meant to be a direct overhead as much, but it’s better as a wakeup meaty, and there are a few times when you can catch an opponent off-guard with it, especially coupled with her low-hitting drills. Yes, your opponent can react most of the time to them, but the real beauty is in training your opponent one way, then making them pay for reacting wrong. Faking a drill so they block low, then going in for a throw; using the tip of that far backfist hitbox to poke more safely. She also has a short crossup now, and she still has her great priority aerial moves. Her all-around game is less quick than my N.Cammy’s, but she has higher priority in several of her moves, less vulnerability in others, and a mix-up that feels right for her as a classic character, but doesn’t break her in the least.

252

Maybe

O.Sagat

  • Give him bigger hurtboxes during Tiger shot, but keep their speed/recovery
  • Remove his cancels
  • Small damage reduction to TU
  • Tiger Knee is CE TK

N.Sagat

  • Gets O.Sagat’s cancels
  • Same Tiger speed/recovery, but with O.Sagat’s hurtboxes
  • Reversal super glitch fixed
253

Not hard to use the graphics.

254

^Oh, I’d love to learn how you did that, and what variations there are besides color. Nice!

255

It’s just some of the unused graphics.
Some where after 0xFFB000 is background sprite objects.

Edit
This is pretty much universal for the cps2.

256

lol dude…

everytime you post up some crazy shit you post it all casually and my mouth just casually drops everytime lol

257

damn street fighter 2 ZX?
my wet dream i wish there is a update with 2 more new characters and new moves for all characters

258

It’s just SSF2Z, it was an alternate title the team thought of using. Quite a few of the developers are DBZ fans (cough Noritaka cough).

259

Now you have to change Cammy’s name to Sarah.

260

The name is still there I just have to find the hud in some other location besides the graphics ram.