I think feis invin is fine, the super doesn’t move fast.
Imagine boxer’s with that invin. . .
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Well, technically Gief’s super does give him a new option, since he can use it as negative edge just like THawk can with his typhoons/super. Too bad its range is too limiting: if the opponent knows you’re going for it theres a huge chance that he will throw you first.
Jizzon:
“But yeah…getting rid of half the damage and most of the invulnerability? That’s too much. It would make them just like the usual special moves, more akin to how the KoF series uses them (but harder to combo into).”
Well that was partly my point when i suggested that the supers be toned down. They rreally ought be thought of as just other special moves, at the very least. But really more like ES moves in vampire savior or EX moves in 4. Just another tool in your character’s toolbox where there is a benefit and a potential cost (other than meter) to use the move, and not an invincible, high-damage move that would solve a character’s problems too completely.
And this brings up my next point. I actually don’t think that just reducing damage and wiping out all invincible frames is the way to go for balancing all the supers in ST. I think if you were to tweak the supers, two things should be considered:
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Does the super (before and after the tweak) opens up option(s) the character previously did not have
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Do any of the increased/decreased options push the character over the edge in any possible game scenario (no option should solve a character’s problems too completely in any one situation, there should be a cost/penalty for using that option)
So let’s say with boxer’s super. As it is (completely invincible until the second punch), does 50% damage, safe on block, huge range, cannot be ducked (the punch version) or jumped easily (either version).
In in-close situations, it’s easy to see that the super clearly pushes boxer over the edge in terms of options (where he already dominates with excellent normals and his grabs), in near to mid-range (say around or just outside guile’s low forward), boxer could use the super to go through fireballs/pokes, punish whiffs, tag jumpers. Without the super, he’s got the headbutt to hit fireball throwers and jumps, stand fierce for trades, low dash to punish whiffs. Even at mid-range IMO the super is too much. At just around half screen and a bit beyond i think the super still has the range to pass through a fireball and tag the other guy for half life, whereas without super he would have to resort to dashes to either get in or trade.
So if you look at that super as it is and what it does for that character in the ranges where it’s most effective in, it’s easy to see why i would insist that, at least for that super, the invincible frames eliminated and damage be toned down. I would keep the range and the safe on block though, because that would give him an option to get in in some situations where he might have resort to taking hits.
The problem I have with tic into command grab (SPD, Ochio, etc) is that once your dictator and your knocked down your guaranteed to lose another chunk of health.
One of the very few things I liked about SF4 is that you could at least jump out of a tick grab if you saw it coming. Your still probably gonna eat a combo into another knockdown if the fat man knows your trying to wiggle free but that’s still better than a guaranteed tick grab unless you have super to escape.
EDIT:
Dogberry pretty much just said what I’m trying to get at with supers. I couldn’t have said it better myself.
This is my problem with them. Yeah most are pretty meh but some are like holy crap. There should always be something you can do against a super, especially against raging buffalo which is based off a special move that doesn’t even have invincibility frames in the first place.
No matter what, you should ALWAYS be able to punish a move that virtually beats anything else after you successfully block it. I’m looking at Supers and DPs here.
If you want “pure” SF without supers, play HF? It’s not like HF is a bad game.
Anyway, back on topic of the thread: I think HSF2 is a better base for hacking than ST. HDR has already been done; why not try to make an “HDR” HSF2, fix the absurd stuff like CE Bison, and throw in a few other tweaks? I mean, in a perfect world, if I’m going to hack a version of SF to make it better, why not hack the version with more characters?
Um, this is why supers require meter.
Having to edit 33 characters is already quite time consuming. Especially, everyone here is editing with hex editors and just figuring it out. But, asking to edit 65 (8 world warrior, 12 for ce, 12 for hf, 16 ssf2, and 17 for st) is just crazy talk.
Walk speed table
7B912
It’s funny you mention these changes to supers, guys, because before all of this become the topic-of-the-moment, I changed the properties of many of them these very ways in the experiment you’re playing around with. If only I knew how to fix reversal bugs…
And yeah, we have locations of the walk and jump speeds in the .03c ROM; thanks for looking out, though. Do you know where the locations are for special move velocity/acceleration, or how to alter those?
Not really I’ve been looking into the specials a tiny bit character select stuff on other games, but most capcom fighters engine is derived from sf2.
Edit: To fix the reversals is going to require a ton of work as you have to change how turbo is done and the input system, or you talking about stuff where some of the moves are messed up?
No need to edit 65 characters (or even 33). Trying to rebalance O.DJ or O.Blanka or O.Cammy is just pointless. I mean, characters like O.Honda or O.Sim or O.Boxer (i.e. characters that are different in interesting ways), sure. But there’s a good chunk of the old characters that are the-same-but-better new, and fixing the old version is just a flat out waste of time. There’s no way to make O.Blanka better than N.Blanka other than just giving him better hit/hurtbox, less startup, less recovery, or more damage on the exact same moves. The best case scenario is the same character with fewer, better moves. Real boring sh*t.
In any case, I’m not saying that you should try to fix WW Blanka or HF Claw or anything like that. Some versions of characters just get dustbinned, and that’s fine. But if one is hypothetically willing to work on 33 characters, it makes more sense to fine tune HF Boxer, CE Ken, CE Guile, HF Gief, etc. than it does to fine tune O.Dic or O.Chun.
Well, in Jizzon’s hack he buffed some of the trash characters (O.Blanka, O.DJ, etc) and they seemed to be pretty balanced and competitive, and it wasn’t that complicated actually.
Jedpossum, i think Jizzon is talking about the moves which can’t be performed as reversals (Sagat’s, Sim’s and Ken’s supers, O.Dic’s Devil Reverse) as well as moves that dont work right (either T.Hawks DPs are buggy, the last used version always comes out, regardless of the button used).
Okay now you’re contradicting yourself. “You have all these characters” “All those characters are waste”
My guess the input for those are messed up.
edit:
Found the branching subroutines for n.sagat’s specials/super
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bsr $8d9aa
bsr $8dcbc
bsr $8de14
bsr $8db5e
bsr $8df78
No, I’m saying that buffing characters that are the-same-but-worse is a waste. HF Blanka has significantly different strategies from ST Blanka. HF Gief has significantly different strategies from ST Gief. O.Cammy, O.DJ, O.Blanka, O.Dic, etc. are ST characters with less moves.
Unless you’re going the rainbow edition/HDR route (where you simply assign characters brand new moves, or radically changed moves like HDR SBK or HDR HK Flash Kick), all the time you spend fixing a trashy, useless O. character could be spent tuning something like HF Chun instead. Sirlin made a smart choice to get rid of old/new in HDR, because rebalancing old characters (with a few specific exceptions) is just redundant. Better to work with older, better, different versions of the characters instead.
In other words they’re different characters
in other words waste
The formats for attacks hasn’t change dramatically you can just port them over.
This isn’t porting a character Vampire Hunter to Vampire Savior/Hunter 2.
Yes, O.Dic is a “different character” from N.Dic in the same sense and to the extent that if you simply locked out Fei at the select screen and made no other changes, you would have a “different game.”
That is exactly what I am trying to convey when I say “the-same-but-worse.” Why spend time tuning characters that are the-same-but-worse (and yes, being worse does technically make them different… great call!) when you can tune characters that are different in useful and interesting ways?
I wonder if trying to re-tune AE would take out some of its crazy, novelty appeal. Like if you were to re-tune CE bison, or lower the damage/stun potential of WW characters, whatever. Part of the appeal of that game IMO was to see how the crazy shit in each version of the game stacked up against another version (ce bison lockdown vs. st supers, high damage/stun vs. throw techs), to tweak those aspects of the game seems like it would take out the part of the game that makes AE what it is.
If you really rather see the cps1 versions of the characters than ssf2 versions, you could do something like adjust old guile to give him all the properties of, say, CE guile (minus the high damage), frame for frame, hitbox for hitbox, and you’d pretty much have ce guile in ST. Or blanka, i always thought giving o.blanka back HF blanka’s upball would be the one thing that would make him worth playing again. If you’re going that way, you could also give him back his godlike jump up RH too. Would that upball thing be even possible to do in the st hack?
Must be double-post day.
Part of the inspiration for tweaking the old characters in ST was looking at some good stuff throughout the years that had been cut or changed. Take Dictator as an example.
Obviously in CE he was overpowered with that mix-up Crusher and the fast-charging chipping legs of doom. In both HF and SSFII, though, he really got watered down to being pretty ineffective. His offense was gimped, and he has no good ways of escaping pressure.
In ST, his ToD combos, juggling strongs, and super really gave him much better attack options and defense. Some of the changes Sirlin added in HDR such as the escaping Devil Reverse made a lot of sense for him as well.
So how to give O.Dic some power that makes him feel like a classic version of the character, yet remain unique?
For starters, his Psycho Crusher got better priority. He has the same hurtbox at his midsection as CE Dic, plus the same priority forward of that move as well (a buff of like six pixels). We learned the hard way that the really broken part of that move in CE was how the hitbox at his legs could cross up so easily, so now it only goes back to the same point as his midsection hurtbox did in SSFII. The move now beats a few things more cleanly, it allows him to pressure with it a bit better, and it can still be a tricky (though not broken as all hell) cross-up. He can use his jab and strong ones in particular to force unsuspecting characters to land on his ass, which will now connect. It’s also a bit more difficult to punish, but since it doesn’t chip any more than in S/ST on block, it doesn’t outright blow out any matches. In the end, it’s not nearly as effective as anything he has in CE, but it still feels classic, and works out very well for him.
The next big change was along the same lines as he got in HDR, and that was to allow his unsteerable Devil Reverse to escape fireball traps. Unlike HDR Dic, the move didn’t lose any start-up frames, though; all six of his grounded frames are invulnerable. Why? The move is much more predictable to counter, and he has no super, so he needs a way to not get smothered with impunity by half the cast. As is, the reversal bug is still there, so you have to “load” it if you think there’s any chance you’re going to get cornered. Jump-in mix-ups still do a number on him, but it actually rewards you to not safe jump him, since the late timing would allow him a better chance for his escape. Though the move is typically easier to punish than the ST Devil Reverse, it at least gets him out of the corner faster as well. It, too, has worked out really well.
He got some other tweaks too, like his standing forward and roundhouse not being able to be hit by lariats. Just those two main changes though really make him come alive and be competitive, while still feeling right.
There’s still plenty that’s ripe to play with as well that fits the old characters. Blanka’s weird WW “overhead” is still in the game data, and could be easily set and modified for the old version to have a unique tool. I gave O.Guile a variation of his CE/HF roundhouse two-hit Flash Kick, and man is it sweet to connect with. It also comboes more reliably, thanks to a few tricks the ST engine allows.
So yeah, just dismissing any of the old characters outright doesn’t make sense. There’s a lot of potential there, as we’ve had fun discovering.
EDIT: And yeah; I was referring to the reversal bugs and odd inputs, not the overall reversal window itself (which is fine as-is).
My point is that rather than tweaking O.Blanka/Chun/Gief, you could tweak HF Blanka/Chun/Gief and have more of a “different moves do different things” instead of “Psycho Crusher has better priority.” HF upball isn’t the just ST upball with more priority… it’s a totally different move. HF Kikoken isn’t just ST Kikoken with better recovery, etc.
To some extent, I’ve always thought that ST would have been a better game if the old code gave you the HF version instead of the SSF2 version. There’s just more distinction between HF and ST. If you look at a character like Boxer, the ST version is very different than the HF version (with SSF2 being somewhere in the middle). Why not have two distinctly different flavors of a character instead of one that less recovery on headbutt and a better hitbox on low strong?
You’re still making zero sense. the differences between the older cps1 characters is mainly frames and and hitbox differences(if you don’t count bugs) which can easily be recreated in st since it’s still same engine.
As fixing the reversals all I’m going to say is welcome to assembly hacking.
Well, yes, jedpossum, the difference between Psycho Crusher and, say, Bionic Arm is “mainly frames and hitbox differences.” See, I can also make uselessly obvious statements!
If you think that the difference between HF Boxer and ST Boxer is “mainly frames and and hitboxes” (outside of the stupid, useless definition I just highlighted), I don’t know what to tell you. They are completely disparate characters with totally different focuses, primarily due to HF TAP vs. headbutt. And generally speaking, Capcom has been reluctant to give characters hitboxes that DO NOT CORRESPOND AT ALL to the animation frame (which is what you would get if you CPS2 Boxer’s low forward hitbox to CPS1 Boxer, or CPS2 Claw’s jump strong hitbox to CPS1 Claw).
Editing frame data can change how a character is played.
Edit:
There is a tutorial in this very thread so go experiment and do the changes yourself.