Guile in Super Street Fighter IV (arcade version)

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
401

^ i think the same thing happens in super.

that video has me less worried about guile. if you play offensive, you gain more than enough meter. luckily for me i’m usually very aggressive, so i doubt my style will change too much. looks like he still owns ryu and ken. i don’t know much about yun and yang. but from what i’ve seen it seems that yang has more ambiguous mixups and will probably be the harder match.

i will say this though, the dhalsim match is going to be really, really bad…like i’m thinking worse than guile/bison in super. deejay match is suddenly a role reversal too because it’s now designed in a way that guile has to attack deejay rather than the other way around. deejay also has the better options on knockdown and also on wakeup when he gets knocked down himself. :frowning:

just out of curiosity, is that rekka move that yun does (the one that leaves a blur of yuns in his trail) safe on block?

402

Heh, new guiles! Can anyone read kanji? That guy is pretty solid.

403

Reading the comments in that a-cho video, you can tell Capcom really listened to their fanbase when deciding what to do with Guile. Feels like the haters pretty much filibustered Capcom into nerfing him…
Looks like I’ll be running a 50/50 Guile/DeeJay split if AE gets forced onto console. Been playing around with DeeJay on Super to prepare for AE and I almost feel spoiled with his moveset and auto-correcting “flash kick”. :slight_smile:

404

Even though I know that Guile is nowhere as good now, I decide to watch the Japanese videos anyway to do some analyzing. For the most part all I saw a bunch of whiffed Sonic Hurricanes that would have normally hit Sagat in SSF4. Now onto intricacies.

In a-cho video No.3 at exactly 20:35-20:36, you can see that the developers still didn’t completely fix Guile’s upside down kick as Blanka hits him out of the start-up frames with a crouching short.

I’ll do some more tiny analyzing and hopefully not come back with more bad news.

EDIT} Also, Reverse Spin Kick does not work if Ibuki crouch techs.

405

Sucks to hear about Guile’s nerfs. As others have mentioned, he’s not a super exciting character to use or play, so giving him so much disadvantage really harms the character in the competitive scene. I’ll weather the storm in AE, but I can understand long time tourney players deciding to retire him for tourney play. Ono was ridiculous with the nerfs.

406

Rman, he may not be the most exciting character to watch all the time, but I find playing him to be incredibly fun and interesting - otherwise I wouldn’t play him! And players like Die and War always have awesome matches I love to see come on the streams.

Dieminion, how do you feel AE Guile matches up with Vanilla Guile? I’m kind of torn from what I’ve seen - Guile has definitely gotten some undeserved nerfs, but it still seems like his game is unchanged… it just sucks to see DeeJay get buffs all around whereas Guile could’ve simply been left alone.

Apparently University Pinball here in Philadelphia has surprised me and is getting AE in the next two weeks, so I’ll be able to give some feedback once they get it in.

407

I do agree that Guile is incredibly fun to play. It’s almost like a puzzle, how can the Man with Two Special Moves overcome his opponent in this matchup? My bnb’s a 1 frame link? Easy Operation, no sweat.

The thing is that unless a balance patch is applied, Guile will have fewer ways to get around the puzzles of each fight, as his meter plays a huge role in the solutions to each fight.

408

I’m not Di3, but here’s my 2 cents. The thing is, damage is down, U2 may as well not exist unless your playing a fireball user or a specific matchup, and he still doesn’t have the up close tools to contend at that range. But you guys are really forgetting just how bad vanilla guile was. Bazooka knee had like, 5 extra frames of recovery, fireball wars were painful due to boom recovery, no df.hk juggle, crappy backfist range, and U1 was even WORSE!

All that noise pales in comparison to the big thing about the transition from vanilla to super to AE is the universal nerf. We’ve all heard people call this game “Super Nerf Fighter 4” and the reality is that it’s true. Guile’s damage is down, but so is everyone’s. Ya, sure, it takes more hits to kill… say… Rufus, but now if you eat a s.lk > s.hk > U1… or a j.hk > EX snake strike, you aren’t going to die. If you eat a shoryu FADC ultra, the match is still winnable. Guile didn’t get nerfed. He got balanced.

To those who complain about the general nerfs by the way, they were great IMO. Safe 50/50 bullshit into massive damage shouldn’t exist and it’s good that it was toned down. Like I said previously, I can’t figure out who the top tier is in this game. The crowd screams Yun, but I still have trouble seeing it. The top 5 in Japan right now, are two Yuns, an Akuma, a Ken, and… I forget… maybe rufus. When I was in the arcade during Vanilla, it was a gaggle of 2/3rds Ryu/Akuma/Sagat and “then the rest of the cast.” Now fast forward to AE, and the entire cast gets a lot of representation now.

Guile is fine. I won’t say it again.

409

Good stuff, Slinkun. I agree with you that Guile is probably overall fine, even if he’s not Super Guile. I think Super is a great game. It’s pretty damn balanced for the most part - a few characters are pretty strong, a few are (sadly) a bit too weak, but most of the cast falls in the range of “competitively viable” in my opinion. Anyways.

Yun seems really frigging strong but then again, he’s been out for all of a week and everyone still has a lot to learn and discover. I played Guile in Vanilla, I played Guile in Super, and I’ll keep playing Guile in AE. If I was a high-level competitive player who had a serious shot at say, Top 32 at Evo, I may take every little nerf a little more seriously - if I’m playing purely to win and not just because I love Guile.

Anyways, like I said, I dont get to play AE for another week or two, so until then I’m interested in what everyone else has to say.

410

Dhalsim is gonna be a pain in the ass. Sonic boom > Counter hit from his stand HP all day

411

:wonder: He was “fine” once he got the small changes they allowed him in Super. Super came out in April. Not even a year later, for an “arcade” version, they messed with the game yet again? It’s not like every Guile player has things like FK>FADC>U2 on lock even now… air throw was the closest thing to a 3rd move Guile had, and now apparently it’s questionable… Guile gets hit on SB recovery (which happens to even the best players some times) and now has a damage penalty for that… and building meter to even have the option of FADC’ing anything or ex boom someone is crippled.

It isn’t even about just the changes to Guile. They should’ve left Super alone, added the Hong Kong Wonder Twins, and just been done with it instead of forcing yet another round of adjustments on everyone yet again. Save it for a whole new game at least… sheesh.

Guile doesn’t *seem *fine. Won’t say it again, but I’m sure others will. :wgrin:

412

Guile was not fine in super. Guile was redonkulous in super. It got to the point where it was near impossible for some characters to beat him. How the hell was honda supposed to beat him? Bison? Hawk? Hakan? Zangief? Ryu, Sagat, Vega, Sakura? We need to look at the big picture here… just because he still had like, 4 bad matchups in super, doesn’t mean he was balanced.

Frankly, I think you SHOULD have to work your ass off in some matches. When I got to Japan, Vanilla was only out for a week and I went Guile. If I wanted to go brain-dead win-streak I would have picked Sagat. Good/bad matchups make for a dynamic game. I’m interested to see what comes of having to deal with Dhalsim, Yun, and Akuma now in AE… we’re going to have to get creative… time to start thinking out of the box instead of praying for auto-wins.

413

How is it that Guiles don’t work hard enough for their wins already, Slinkun? We’ve all been busting our asses since Vanilla, and even with the small changes made in Super, I don’t feel Guile was as “auto win” as you’re making him out to be. If they wanted to balance him out, I could agree with damage nerfs for sure. But making U2 almost as lame as U1 (the startup for U2 being all the difference in its functionality as both an anti-air and punish) and screwing with air throw (Guile’s only other “special” move) were really dumb changes. Not to mention the meter building changes. And the CH damage. And the still shady 1-frame links (manageable, but shady).
I’d love a “balanced” game as much as you would, but aside from some good normals, he only had little details that kept him functional in SSF4, while so many other characters still have easy to execute moves or combos into ultras that could turn a match off one small mistake. Or, they have multiple specials that are safe on block. And now, in addition to FK recovery being what it’s always been (i.e. lame) and not auto-correcting, SB is also now less “safe”. Short end of the stick to say the least while I’m getting dive kicks rained on me that leave my opponent safe on block. At least the changes in Super compensated for the lack of many common sense abilities Guile should’ve had all along (GHK juggle is nice, but was an obviously overdue concession finally granted).
AE doesn’t sound good early on, but I’ll wait till I ever get a chance of playing it to be full on “f*ck this” about the nerfs. Depends on what the other characters had done to them…

Sorry for the derail. :slight_smile:

414

yun and yang are tough matchups. imagine vs rufus…but the rufus has a command grab… :confused:

or fei long with a dive kick… the cr. fierce option select works, its just that when you throw in the command grabs into the mixups…guile loses…

415

IMO, I think Vanilla Guile is better than AE Guile. But I haven’t played AE at all, just knowing about his nerfs and watching vids made me think that way.

I play Vanilla often instead of Super. Sometimes I don’t even pull out his Ultra in 10 matches, or should I say, not even once during my arcade session. To me, Guile is a character that doesn’t need ultra to win.

There was already a dmg reduction on most characters in Super. Now he gets dmg nerfed again in AE. SB is one of his only 2 specials, and yet they make it take counterhit dmg. Yes, I can take it that SB is rather safe and so the reason for taking counterhit dmg. But I think his stun should be increased to balance it out.

I have never thought Guile was top tier in Super cos he didn’t have really have good option selects like the rest of the cast cos he’s charged-based and not safejump setup-based like a lot of other characters. IMO, he was just slightly below top tier and the real top tiers in Super are Fei, Boxer, Akuma and Adon and they didn’t really get nerfed in AE. In fact, most of them got stronger.

I really can’t imagine how he’s gonna face Viper, Sim, Adon and Fuerte in AE. So what if UDK now can hit out her EX seismo now? She can replace it with her thunder SRK instead, or the EX BK if you try to pressure her on wakeup. Sim can just keep walking forward and hp, repeat and push into the corner. Trading is not an issue for Sim as the hp deals counterhit dmg. Fuerte has more chances of running back and forth into his whatever now due to Guile’s dmg. Even Chun could be considered a bad matchup now.

What Capcom don’t understands is that Guile already requires a lot of skill and a stronger mental game in order to win his opponent. He’s not a just-pick-up-and-get-good-in-a-short-time character, even in Super. You have to be very familiar with him in order to win a 5/5 matchup who is decent at the game and this takes time and experience and intricate knowledge of the game. They are just making players more resistent to choosing Guile as a character and making those who already know how to play him seriously consider dropping him.

I think Capcom really made him into a pussy this time. Hits like a pussy. Ultras like a pussy. Gains meter like a pussy. And he already fights like a pussy.

416

That’s a joke, right mate? Been here long enough to hear all the crying about OP Guile from the other forums but not you man.
We worked our ass off in Vanilla just to stay afloat and whoever stuck around became a better player because of Guiles drawbacks than most Ryu/Akuma/Sagat, etc players. We weren’t allowed to make mistakes just to have a chance. The few SMALL tweaks Super gave us allowed us to gain the upper hand because now, having perfected our gameplay payed off really well.

Most people who picked up Guile in Super because “he GOD tier yo!” quickly moved on and the names we came to see at tournaments are still the same we saw in Vanilla (Die, Lamer, Warahk, etc) and lets be honest, none of them are wiping the floor with the competition anywhere. Name a Guile player that recently won any major tourney…

Ryu, (insanely improved in Super) Ken, Vega, Gief and Sak (with meter of course) have all the tools they need to bring down the best of Guiles. If they fail, it’s the players, not the character. There is nothing inherit about their design that makes them lose.
Abel, Elf, Rufus, Akuma, Chun, Ibuki, Guy (amongst others) walk all over Guile by abusing his design (lack of wake-up options), not because of their damage output. There is a huge difference in advantage when you’re able to abuse character design.

Nerfing 2 of his MAIN zoning tools and increasing the startup on his Ultra makes guile a pretty bad zoning character IMO. Take away 2 of Akuma’s rushdown tools and see how quickly he plays like t-hawk.
This also means that Guile has exactly HALF of his semi-safe wake up taken away (FK FADC on wake-up) and 100% of his EX booms because now you need to save it all for wake-up.

I don’t care for damage nerfs. As far as I’m concerned, make every Guile move do 50 damage…or 20…but don’t take away the tools that make him a smart-man’s zoning character. The only way Guile is balanced with the new nerfs is if the whole cast isn’t able to rush or zone…and we know that isn’t the case

I mained Guile in Vanilla as I did in Super and I most likely will continue in AE unless things are really as bad as they seem.
I also mained Guile in WW so I know what S Tier Guile feels like and the Super Guile certainly isn’t it.
IMO, fix the weak characters, add the Hong Kong wonder boys and call it a day. Nerf Fighter IV is not the way to go.

Had to get this TL;DR post off my chest.

417

Just got back from another 7 hour long night playing AE. I picked Dee Jay once, Guy once, T.Hawk once (Suck with him but I like him) and Guile for the remainder of the night.

The difference between SF4 Guile and AE Guile is that in SF4, Guile dealt more damage overall, but then again the damage output was high in SF4 among the whole cast so that’s understandable. Other than damage output AE Guile is better than SF4 Guile.

To me damage is not the problem, he does good damage in AE. My gripe is the other buffs that made Guile fun to play. Capcom didn’t have to nerf his meter gain so hard. At least it should have been somewhere between SF4 and Super, it’s worse than vanilla. I see one pixel of meter after 3 booms thrown. In order for me to gain substantial meter I MUST play offensively. In a fireball war, Guile gains the least amount of meter in the game even though we need to charge to throw a projectile. Now I understand that we can’t win a fight just by throwing projectiles the whole match, but we then have to devise a strategy to close the gap so that we are actually mid-range (Guile’s sweetspot range) to be able to fight whilst at the same time worrying about the opponent psychic jump or guess jump our booms and hit us for counter hit damage.

We as Guile players (and yes I’m still going to main him) now have another worry on our hands. We have to make sure that we don’t throw too many booms, because when it finally tacks onto most players that Guile can be severely punished for throwing booms, then the game is going to change not for them, but for us. We have to play more carefully than ever now that sonic boom is not as safe.

Also, match-ups are going to change drastically especially with C.Viper and Dhalsim. Random EX Seimos are going to probably cost us more matches due to counter hit on booms and now Dhalsim is going to trade fierce with booms all day. It was already in his favor to do this now it’s EVEN more of a benefit. Not to mention he still gains the same meter as Super Guile paired with his ultra 2 in case we want to jump. Not to mention that Sonic Hurricane comes out slower so it won’t him him in Yoga Fire recovery. I’m going to engineer with Dhalsim next time. It’s clearly a different match for us, but not for him.

And yes, I like how Capcom did not mention the counter hit nerf in the blog. So in actuality, Guile got nerfed 8 times and counting (I’ll figure out what else they nerfed tomorrow) ; Less meter build, less flash kick damage, less backfist damage, extra frame on air throw, more start up on ultra 2, less damage on ultra 2, less damage on UDK, and takes counter hit damage during boom animation.

He still plays better compared to vanilla, but I don’t think there was a need at all to mess with the characters traits and frames. Can we get some new combos or frame advantage moves? Also, can Rolling Sobat be considered airborne? Can Ultra 1 auto correct and take less frames of start-up in return of nerfing it’s damage a little? 8 things were taken away from us and we received nothing. Bison only got 2 nerfs, Chun-Li only got 2 nerfs. Guile has 2 special moves and mostly unique normals. Chun-Li has the most moves in the game according to the move list!

Ok, I was kind of ranting there but it’s just sad that we received nothing to revitalize Guile’s gameplay. I think all of the characters, from their transition with SF4 to Super to AE has gotten things that slightly changed them for the better. We’ve been doing the same combos and using the same strategy since SF4 and it’s for this reason alone that I’ve even considered dropping him in AE. Nothing to do with “you’re only complaining because he’s not overpowered anymore” or “your lame style doesn’t fit the character because now you don’t get rewarded for holding back”.

Anyway, I’m going to have a nice Christmas trying to find new things with Guile and I’ll fill you guys in on it. Look forward to new match-up strategies and new setups for ultra 1 I’ve been working on!

EDIT} Did ANYONE notice that Blanka hit Guile out of the start-up of UDK in that video or am I seeing things? Just curious…

418

Fixed. :wgrin: Thanks for investigating all the changes btw, even if I get a little more bummed with each update you’re giving us.

419

if henry cen is right (and the dlc doesn’t come out on console until june 11th), i personally couldn’t care less about guile’s nerfs. i’m pretty sure the majority of us will be playing another fighter by then. pretty dumb of them to take so long to release it when so many other games are due out next year (mk9 / marvel / 3rd strike online/ possibly sf x tekken). people are bored/getting bored of the sf4 engine already…and some of the guys who are already playing a.e now will be done of this game by june (i feel for you arcade/tournament guile players right now lol).

420

Just played 3 rounds at the arcade against one of the best Yun/Yang player I’ve seen so far… my god it’s like fighting Makoto, Guy, Fei-Long and Rufus all at the same time. Dive Kick Dive Kick Dive Kick Blockstring Hit-confirm to Rekka, Ambiguous Dive Kick into Rekka or Grab or Command Grab… finally get breathing space and then get counter-hit through sonic boom by shoulder leading into Dive Kick Dive Kick Dive Kick. What is this I don’t even…

Basically I do’nt know the match up for crap so it took me a while to figure out all I had to do was just not-sonic-boom and instead look for the Shoulder animation and just Flash Kick his ass but the Dive Kick pressure and counter-hit through booms was ridiculous. Every round he got me to the corner and just took me to town. All I could do was tech and hope for enough charge time to flash kick his next Dive Kick. For the record, I landed an anti-crossup 2 hit super into turn-around-Sonic Hurricane juggle and it literally did like 1 centimeter health bar damage. Absolutely would have killed him in Super.

So scared of throwing sonic booms against the twins… ughhhh