Been getting the hang of Guile more lately, I’m having fun with him, I actually think a couple of his sf4 tactics are still pretty viable in this,but yeah he is VERY different OVERALL.
So yesterday in Street Fighter V ranked, I lost 400-500 points (1600 to 1100). Even when I went to Casual Matches I was losing. I re-watched my matches and I was able to see some flaws I had, however I’m here to ask some questions in situations I just wasn’t sure what to do. My main is Guile so some things could be Guile specific or just general situations.
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[] As a zoner sometimes I’m having trouble when to go in vs staying back and not pressing buttons. Sometimes I go too ham and press buttons/jump in at wrong time and get bopped. However sometimes I also get too scared and just block a bunch before getting easily opened up/thrown/comboed. How to find the right balance?
[] Sometimes I have trouble figuring out when exactly when to press buttons/jabs during pressure. I know it’s usually safer to block but eventually you’ll have to figure out when to press jab or other buttons to make them a little more scared to press buttons and to prevent them from throwing.
[] How often should you backdash and/or back jump? I know the general idea of both is to gain space so maybe when you feel like your offense isnt working well and you need a breather or creating space is vital in the matchup?
[] As a charge character is it worth to shimmy outside using for the occasional (tick) throw?
[] How often should wakeup EX Flash Kicks (DPs) be done? Maybe like 1-2 times a set? I think I get too antsy and want to reversal and want to not use it too much. At the same time I want them to respect that I have the option.
[] When blocking how do you figure out when it’s “your turn", is it all about matchups and frame data or just really obvious looking unsafe moves?
[] I like to throw Booms at the close-mid range to whiff punish pokes but sometimes when I throw fireballs at that range they’ll either jump on reaction or at the same time and I get bopped or have to block. Should I limit the amount of close-mid range Booms and focus more on my own normals and anti-airs?
[] As a charge character doing the walking backwards/forwards footsie thing doesnt seem as effective as if you were a motion character. Is it ever worth doing this as a charge characters? Whats a nice equivalent besides holding down back? (which can be predictable)
[] I try to anti-air almost every time someone comes whether it’s wish a Flash Kick or normals. However a lot of the time I’ll be too late and get hit. How do I choose when to just block?
[] As far as purposefully whiffing your own normals at safe ranges… is it a way to get people to make moves or keep them thinking?
[] As far as purposefully fishing for (Crush) Counter hits. How do you do it correctly? Most Heavy Normals have high startup so it’s hard to gauge when they’ll press a button without them hitting/counter hitting you first. So far, I can only get proper Crush Counters on Meaty Wakeups.
[] Probably more of a Guile thing, how do you figure out when to actually jump in? It seems like one of the few ways to start a combo/pressure with him outside trying to fish a counter hit through a meaty but at the same time you cant do it too much or else you’ll get predictable when trying to pressure.
[] I’ve been trying to incorporate neutral jumping more, when’s it good to do that?
[] * When is it generally good to sweep? Especially with a super unsafe/long one as Guile.
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To answer a few of your questions:
- Knowing when it’s your time is just about knowing the frame data/testing out what you can punish during play. I personally think it’s easiest to just memorize each characters frame data, but some people would rather learn through experience
- You can try and get a crush counter frame trap by forcing the opponent to block a St Lp or St Mp (both of which are +3 on block) and then hitting St Hp (7f startup, so this is a 4f trap)
- About when to wake up with FK, I wouldn’t say there is a set number of times to do it. It is something varies from opponent to opponent. Despite the fact that it is especially risky in this game (you’ll eat a full crush counter punish if it’s blockez), I still like to wake up FK pretty early in a match because it gives the opponent one more thing to think about. That is just personal preference though and some (wiser) players are happy to just block on wake up
- I would say the shimmy is definitely worth going for
I’m at work now, but I’ll try and answer more later
This relies heavily on your opponent. In general if a guy likes to get in and hit buttons, I just space him out, and run away. This way I get them so frustrated that they’ll get desperate. Generally my mentality is that if they’re far away, it doesn’t matter if they hit buttons. In general in SFV, someone WILL get in if they keep pushing their way in enough. The damage you’d get from reacting and countering just won’t add up to what they’ll get once they push their way in. So the best thing to do is to counter them and go in for a little pressure yourself, this can be meaties or whatever.
My general matches play like this, wait until someone get’s impatient and jump. Anti air them, then do a meaty. Usually ultra aggressive opponents HATE being put on defense, and will try to press a lot of buttons under pressure. This is where you brush up on your frame traps and combos to score a lot of damage. You can probably beat like 80% of the online player base doing this. Since they generally like to jump and hate to block.
In general even safe special moves are about -2. So you can at least do a standing jab. Generally jabs work well against “dash in” situations. For example it’s common for Nash players to just try to dash their way in. So a standing jab will normally stop them.
Secondly it’s usually safe to jab after 3-4 hits in a string. In this game the pushback is pretty heavy especially or mediums and lights, so if you see 2-3 attacks you probably are safe to jab them back.
You can backdash a throw attempt if you think it’s coming and don’t want to tech. In general you probably are better off teching, or using your flashkick (if you have charge). Backdash is not as useful in this game. But in general you can use your backdash a a mobility option.
Jump backs should be used sparingly, but I think the best time is in the corner. Sometimes they may try to jump out, so jump back attacks will catch them. Jump backs are almost always going to be a read if you think someone may be randomly trying to dash or jump at you.
cr.mp is probably his best shimmy I would imagine. Depending on the range, st.HK can also be good.
no right or wrong answer. Do it when you have a “gut feeling” about your opponent pressing a button. In general you can pull it out to close out a match. But you have to establish that basically you’re willing to take pressure, block, or tech throws. Then they won’t be expecting it. Reversals in genereal beat meaties and frametraps. So you definitely want to use it at certain points. If your opponent is meaty and frametrap crazy, then ex flashkick will annoy the living shit out of them.
Learn frame data and learn your punishes. Generally anything -2 and above that pushes your opponent back generally gives you a turn.
Mix it up with light attacks, that way they’ll commit to a jump and you can anti air. It’s worth throwing sonic booms at bad ranges occassionally just to keep your opponents guessing.
It is effective. You just have to learn to hide your charge better. Forward to downback is the best movement for charge characters.
You should block when they jump at you from an angle that is too deep, to the point you know your AA attempts will get stuffed. Generally a jump in outside of sweep range is particularly dangerous for Guile. Though you may want to try to AA as much as possible, even if it get stuffed. The key is to establish that you’re going to challenge jump ins every time. The more jump ins you block the more comfortable the get jumping at you in neutral. You generally want to keep them grounded so you can play your zoning and footsie game more effectively.
It’s to fake them out. It will make them react and this gives you information about their intentions.
Character specific and player specific. A lot of characters have terrible anti-airs, so you can jump in on them all day. Bison, Karin come to mind. You can also jump when people do high recovery moves from bad ranges. Such as another Guile who does sonic cross in your face. You can generally just jump at them. Some players aren’t good at anti-airing, and you can take advantage of this by jumping at them repeatedly.
Against good people you have to “EARN” the jump in. And this is based on how well you’ve established your footsies game. If you keep wrecking them with pokes, then you’ll have them so worried that they’re not thinking about your jumping in. Or you may force them to commit to high recovery moves and bad ranges
It’s good at thrwarting crossup attempts. Or even dash-ins. Necali’s move that goes through fireballs or Birdie’s headbutt. If you see people spamming these, neutral jumping helps alot. Neutral jumpings is also good in the mixup game when people try to tech throws. You can force them to whiff, and come down into a fat combo
Only in footsies. But sqeeeps are good against walk backs in footsies. It is also good for whiff punishing cr.mk or other mediums that whiff. It has to be fast, so it’s something you have to train for a lot. Generally good people in footsies will punish mediums with sweeps 8-10 times. If you think you have a good read, you can guess sweep and get a cross counter. Dashup sweep against people who like to mash is a great way to get CC sweeps
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yep, that’s why I don’t use L booms much, too easy to deal with and come up with a plan. My guile is throwing 90% fastballs like a major league pitcher. Add in a healthy amount of jab fakes and it becomes much easier to get out v skill since opponents don’t know what’s coming.
I do take a healthy amount of jumpins because of my style, but that will pass as I get better.
I don’t think he’s op or anything though. His FK only does 120 damage and his booms only do 50 damage… Both good concessions to make up for hoe good his moves are.
It IS funny to see Cammys trying to guess my booms and v skill/jumpin/divekick in and just eat a flashkick for their efforts. Nope, gotta play solid against boom happy man.
Anyone got anything on the matchup against Bison? I feel at quite a disadvantage from his pressure If I try hitting any button I get countered and most of the time I just sit there blocking trying to get away. There’s also the teleporting through booms and devil reverse.
Bison could be a matchup where you can try to go more on the offensive since that’s Bison’s weakness.
You can V-Reversal his pressure.
If he dashes through booms poke him with a normal depending on your range.
ohhh, do I reverse right after say his cr.mp during his bnb?
V-Reversal where you would normally press a button.
The thing I love about Brandon is how he takes the time to write these dissertations and help us all out
Played a platinum Bison earlier and we both played 2 first to 5’s of Bison v Guile with both of us using both characters. I think Guile wins it but it’s not SF4 bad for bison either.
Hey everyone! I was a regular on the Guile forums for the first year or two of SFIV and I’m glad to be back again with my Guile brothers.
That being said, after putting in TONS of lab work, I hate to say it, but does anyone else feel like Guile is not that great?
My main points for thinking Guile isn’t that strong are the following:
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[] All of Guile’s go to pokes from SFIV (Straight fierce punch, cr.MK, and cr.MP in particular) are all shorter and take 2 to 3 more frames to start up. This leads to Guile getting dominated in the mid range game by character’s with solid pokes, like Vega, Karin, Chun etc.
[] Guile’s sonic booms all have the same frame data and have crazy long recovery compared to the old days. This added recovery plus cr.HP having an 8 frame start up (instead of 5 frames like SFIV), means that people can jump over boom on reaction and you’re forced to block their jump in and block it out through the frame traps.
[*] V trigger seemed amazing at first, but you can only get those crazy corner loops in perfect situations where all the stars align (full resources, deep jump in in the corner, etc.), not to mention needed very solid execution to pull that off consistently. V trigger in neutral allows you to push people back or throw different boom speeds to control space and give you the option to walk forward and frame trap or just gain space. This all sounds good but if you’re patient and block you’ll weather Guile’s V trigger storm just fine.
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So now, I asked myself, why did Capcom do this to Guile?*** I think it’s because Guile’s V skilled Sonic Booms are crazy strong, making him able to control the long range. V skilled HP booms guarantee control of the screen at long range and V skilled LP booms allow you to move forward almost risk free.
The problem is that, with all the characters’ great mobility and anti zoning tools, people will always make it to that mid range eventually, and this is where Guile starts to fall apart.
Since you can’t spam boom up close anymore, you have to make them respect your footsies and anti airs before you’re allowed to throw booms again. This is much easier said than done, especially cause Guile’s slower mediums get stuffed up close and even his booms seem to have a hurt box or something extending out in front of it because I’ve gotten crush countered from ranges where I could’ve sworn Guile’s sonic booming feet were just out of range of a poke. Every sonic boom is a calculated risk, unlike before where it was a staple to his long and mid range game.
Guile has great damage potential in combos, but you only get that damage off punishes and risky jump in combos. You’ll never confirm into solid damage off footsies.
I definitely need to break out of my old Guile habits cause they clearly don’t work anymore. I see potential in pokes like sobat kick (great range) and st.MK (-1 on block compared to cr.MK’s -4 on block), but Capcom making those pokes good shows you that they want you to commit to footsies OR charging, not both.
Anyway, it’s just disappointing consider I’ve been maining Fang (the struggle) and telling myself it’ll be okay once Guile comes out. My Fang’s hit a solid level and after the trailer and corner combos all over the internet, I was beyond hyped for Guile. Actually getting to play him was kind of a let down.
I’ll definitely play both cause Guile’s the homie and I think he does better in certain match ups, but he’s no where near as good as we thought he’d be.
I agree that V-Skill is probably a big reason for some of his nurfs/changes. It’s REALLY frustrating to adjust to the new pacing of Guile play, since you expect him to have THE best normals in the game and he absolutely does not, not even close. So many characters have better anti-airs than him, which feels especially awkward.
I am liking him a lot but also extremely frustrated at the same time, lol. I’m not sure where his actual viability begins and my bias/expectations end. In some ways, he feels great and I like what they did to him, but in many ways he feels off from what you expect Guile to feel like, and that’s weird and disappointing.
Yeah I agree with a lot of this. I was facing off against a Cammy not long ago and it felt like I had no answer for her cr mk at all. It’s weird playing a Guile with average normals
Viscant’s take, if you haven’t already read it: https://www.brokentier.com/blogs/brokentierblog/100980417-hit-the-ground-running-12-intro-to-guile
Is Chun a bad matchup for Guile? I just played a set and felt like I couldn’t do anything. I throw a boom, she slides under with cr.hp, her walk speed is too quick so even when I tried to get space and establish zoning before I knew it she was back in cr.hp range. Not to mention she out-footsies the hell out of Guile’s stubby normals. #FeelsBadMan
I prob didn’t lab him as much as you did, but I will have to disagree with you.
First off, I think people in general (not just you) need to forget SFIV and think more of SFV context. SFV Ryu also has stubbier and slower normals in comparison to his incarnation in SFIV, yet he is considered top 5 (or even top 3) by most players. Sonic booms were nerfed, but still manage to be the best projectile by far. Obviously the guy with fast, positive on block projectiles wouldn’t have pokes as good as Chun’s or Vega’s, and to be honest his pokes are not that far behind. He still has an above average set of normals (designed to keep your opponent away) and the second best walkspeed so far. Personally, I don’t think there is anyone in SFV that is outright better than Guile in neutral. SFV design by itself favors his archetype.
I didn’t have any issue antiairing with cr.HP since is it has 5 active frames. Do it a bit earlier, space your booms more carefully to do so. Maybe a reaction with st.LP works for close jump ins, not sure.
His V-skill, as you acknowledged, is definitely one of the better in the game. A two-hit meterless projectile THAT JUGGLES is strong no matter how many anti-fireball tools they put in the game. Many of these tools don’t even work on two-hit projectiles or take a good bit of commitment (like Cammy’s spin knuckle that is very telegraphed or Necalli huge recovery after V-skill). Mix up footsies and fireball pressure (as you even suggested yourself) to throw off your opponents.
I will concede that his conversion is not the best and he needs desperately counter-hit confirms to optimize damage. I would rather not have these crazy corner combos and make his UDK and st.MP more positive on hit, so that you can combo off of them without a CH. st.HP being -4 on block I don’t understand at all.
Overall, I think Guile feels fresh, deep and fun to play. I actually don’t care if he is top/high tier or not.
The vtrigger flash is such a fun tool for various purposes since you can just react to things and charge your special move during the freeze : ]
Speaking of pokes, F+HP is so annoying to deal with as a Laura mainer.
I think f.hp has always been difficult for bull-doggers to deal with. Geffa hates that shit too.
I’m getting a lot of mileage out of using lights for a while then when there’s some mid-range jostling, bust out the barrages of heavies. That fast boom is something else.