Did you consider distance as opposed to timing? Perhaps Goukens hitbox is pretty far back during jumping roundhouse? I’ve never made much use of the move so I’m just guessing here.
Technically you can option select after the safe jump, but none of this stuff is 100% fool proof. There are a couple of things your opponent can do to get away. Neutral Jump, Back Dash on Wake up, or try to throw. It’s all a big guess b/c the reason for the safe jump was to get a better position and to avoid the srk if they decided to use it for reversal.
I suppose you can option select here too but you’d lose to SRK by doing this. It’s just nice to know if you want to continue your pressure game you can try throwing this in your mix up game. I’ve found it pretty useful esp. using it to bait SRK’s and wake up Ultras, but everyone’s game style is different so it may not fit with your attack plan.
It’s not fool proof, just a way to bait a few srk misses.
Right so it isn’t technically a true safe jump. You can true safe jump Rog or Sagat but not a Shoto SRK.
The jumping described above just leaves you standing next to the downed opponent while a true safe jump is an option select in and of itself because it will either hit if the opponent does nothing or cause the reversal to miss since you recover before the reversals active frames come into play.
I get what you are saying though, it’s the same as jabbing while someone is waking up and then stopping. You are trying to give the impression you are vulnerable to bait a SRK at the expense of momentum should the person call your bluff instead of get baited(i.e. throw you).
got it, but it’s the best thing we got against srk, just be ready to tech LOL
On hard knock down you can actually safe jump all of Ken’s srk’s except hp srk since it has a 3 frame start up. All of Ryu’s srk’s have a 3 frame start up as well so there is no safe jumping here either, it’s only the faux-safe jump on hard knock down.
When I first started playing SF4 I was maining Ken and I found this to be one of the gayest things ever. Ryu’s Hadoken is faster and his srk is faster than Ken’s, and Ken’s HK doesn’t knock down at all, not to mention Ken’s Ultra is pure shit if the first hit doesn’t register. Some one had a pretty good time making sure that they screwed Ken and Gouken pretty well lol.
Correct. Only thing you can attempt to do is crossup with divekick and hope it either throws off there execution/move choice or that they don’t know that they can crouch, wait for crossover, then DP and hit Gouken’s recovery.
As far as divekick pressure on Shotos go anyway.
Or be risky and faux safe. LOL
Or you could do a combination of both. Combining both safe and risky options, using both with no real rhyme or reason, seems to be the point, the focus of any supposed “vortex.”
Goukens whole damn vortex idea is pretty risky in itself from what I can tell. It’s been 50/50 for me, you can’t rely on it too much you just have to be able to work it into your game plan and be both crafty and lucky. It’s several different ways to get the shit going, I just have to remember to take advantage of all of my hard knock downs. Sometimes I want to rely on his firbe ball > palm / df frame trap too much and it can get a little predictable. Then there are sometimes where I want to be predictable in hopes of baiting a sweep after a safe blocked palm so I can Kongo it.
That happens all the time for me online. It’s hilarious. Better players usually just throw or HERPDERP-DP, but the newbies always go for the sweep, so I low or EX-counter if the palm is blocked.
I’ve noticed the times I’ve been thrown the most is when I don’t have the proper spacing. If you space it out just enough so the tip of his palm hits, much like using lp palm to hit blanka after a blocked blanka ball to avoid being thrown. Some people still go for the throw and you have enough time to jab your way out. It’s a little bit tougher with Ken b/c of the range on his kara throw but you just have to watch for it and be ready to tech. But if you space it right and you see the walk in, you want to be blocking low but use cr. lp b/c it has the same frame data as st. lp and it increases your chances for their throw to whiff.
lp palm- works a little more than 1/2 a screen a way
mp- a step further back than lp palm
hp- a step further back than mp palm
If you go to training mode and back your opp. all the way to the corner and set them on block you will see what I mean. One of the good things is, if you can space it correctly without being in the corner, the palm actually pushes them back a little. Although, another good thing about pushing your opponent to the the corner is you can use his lp fb > palm frame trap without having to catch them on wake up.
The HERPDERP-DP reversal on blocked palms makes me want to pull my hair out.
The Fireball > Palm frame trap has won me several matches by chip damage, it’s definitely a quick thing to have ready in your mind on demand.
Yeah it’s been very good to me, I will note that trying to perfect the art of frame trapping I have eaten my share of Ultras too.
at this point in sf4, we should refer to getting hit by mashed dp’s or dp’s after blocked palms as "herp derp."
you know that is going to happen.
other characters have it worse.
if they read a mashed dp, they cant punish it like gouken can.
i would fucking love it if i could fadc palm into ultra like ryu does with his dp, but dont forget that you can still fadc a blocked palm to make it safe.
if you fadc > backdash a blocked palm against a ryu that likes to dp your blocked palms, you just made a smart play.
http://derp.blogs.exetel.com.au/uploads/derppics/Retard-Horse-HERP-DERP.jpg
Don’t really get the reference, is a herp-derp just something thats retarded?
yes.
Unfortunately, I tend to heavily rely on my EX for basic things so I have to be very mindful so I can manage to get two bars at the end of a round…
That’s something I’ll do once in a while if the opponent made it abundantly clear to me that he’s a mindless masher.
and it’s the very last thing I would do in order to end the round… if I was loaded with an ultra then: FADC out of the palm, watch a whiffed HERPDERP, feed him the Shin-HERPDERP :bgrin:
well, i wouldnt call getting hit by a dp after getting your palm blocked “mindless mashing” but if you do get dp’d after palm once, you know he is capable of it and can capitalize on that later.
Just wanted to confirm that max range sweep > hk demon flip works 100% on ryu, EX shoryu wiffed for me but the rest got beat clean, and in some cases you also crossed over after it (so essentially they “flip” from having srk beaten, and when that is done you stand behind them). It seems like if you’ll actually just straight wiff the demon kick and land behind them if they go for super/ultra (if ryu does super you’ll hit him clean out of it though). Though who does wakeup ultra nowadays.
Also tested the backthrow > sweep, j.mk, haven’t had it beaten by a reversal yet (they dont seem overly autocorrecthappy here).
So yeah this is quite excellent.
during casuals before house of cicada’s 3v3 tournament last night, valle’s gouken ex palmed mike ross’s honda in the corner then dizzied him with the upward fireball and whiffed the ultra because of it.
i couldnt believe it.
it is the same reason i dont combo into tatsu.