I can’t pretend to be some elite player or something, but I’m alright at the game, and as a gouken player I’m pretty happy with most of the tools he is. His jabs suck and he doesn’t seem to have a lot of reliable small combos, but really the only improvement I’d like to see is to see the hurricane kick hit lower or on both sides as it goes up, at the very least the EX version. It’s so frustrating when I think I’m catching my opponent with a hurricane kick on wakeup(yes I know its stupid half the time) and he is just over my head by the time I do it and he just falls right through the backside of the kick.
Why not just a straight, direct damage air Kongo to replace the air parry?
I think that’s pretty good. It would eliminate the need to worry about whether or not the opponent recovered before you did, but an instant recovery parry (on a confirmed hit) may buy Gouken enough time to sneak a backthrow into an ultra. I don’t know what’s better.
Besides multi-hit moves, I’m also concerned that some mindless jab mashing idiot would beat the air parry too. (i.e., another scenario in favor of a counter)
I read Reipin previous posts, it was very informative (cursing aside) and really showed the flaws of gouken’s tools. His counter fails because it is tied with focus system, hence armor breaking moves, as well as reversals AND throws beat it, also keep in mind that you need to guess or predict high or low attacks. Like I said earlier, even if you counter a move, it is not instant, 0 frames counter per say, so crap like poke range ryu’s Cr.mk to Hadouken beats counter. This stuff has to go.
If you have seen the video in which it showed us how cammy countered with her ultra, it was instant, and no focus sound was heard, no grey life bar is damaged. Except from throwing the opponent like this ultra and the no guessing high or low, Gouken’s counter should be like this. Also make his low counter use the punch, I learned the hard way that counter always comes with I want a tatsu, and vice versa (I dunno, but it happens). Move overlapping is horrid and very painful.
His counter, low counter overlap, tatsu not hitting right, and the denjin. I know his wake up fails and he has no hit confirmers (unless jumping heavy punch is a hit confirmer…), but if Capcom did this right, he wont need those stuff. GO GO CAPCOM.
gouken’s counter has some really cool stuff that i love, like:
countering fireballs to hit traps, making those traps less effective against him (guile and dhalsim for example)
1 frame startup with full sphere of unblockable influence to prevent safe jump crossovers and other crossup shenans (blanka’s ambiguous ultra and shoto air tatsus)
fast recovery during ground game which turns it into a kind of poke, that is a lot of fun.
what doesnt make sense to me is all of the checks and balances it goes through:
- are they striking
- is it high or low
- is it an armor breaking move
- is it a reversal
- is it weird (zangief’s ex palm, blanka’s double knee, bison’s ex stomp and double hit devil’s reverse, chun li’s instant overhead air hk, shoto ex srks)
- do you have enough life left
when i choose to use counter i am putting the odds against myself, almost like a little wakeup game.
my opponent has a lot of options and i have very few, making my guess more likely to fail.
as far as air parry is concerned, i like the idea of an air kongo a lot.
the potential damage from a useful air parry is so high that they have to be very careful or everyone is eating backthrow to ultra and (c.hp xx ex palm > whatever) all day long.
right now, if it works, air parry = 400 to 650 damage depending on your meters.
if air kongo did a decent chunk of damage, like 150 or so, the limits would be easier to lift.
they might want to make gouken land before he executes it though, so people can still air to air the demon flip to prevent you from spamming it.
I can certainly appreciate the ability to bait a shoryu and deal massive damage, but it doesn’t feel like there’s any solid situations to set that up. That could just be a hole in my play though. I currently don’t do as much “vortexy” up-close DF mixup stuff as I should. Maybe it’s useful in those situations? If so, then I can see it’s value and maybe it just needs some tweaks to not get beat by reversals and maybe land a bit quicker.
With the way I currently play, it feels like a total shenanigan to pull this off. It seems like I have to do a completely unsafe and obvious DF and then hope like hell that they try to SRK it, since just about any other response will get me roughed up. At least in these cases Akuma’s palm seems safer, since it has a a generous hit box, breaks armor, and drops him like a rock. It also work well in his mix-ups. On the other hand I will say that the air parry feels like it’s more in the spirit of Gouken’s bait and punish flavor. So, there’s that. It also may be that since Gouken doesn’t have Akuma’s quick follow up ground moves and combos that maybe the palm wouldn’t help him as much as it helps Akuma.
Forgive my ramblings. All I know is that Akuma’s palm seems useful to him and I see lots of Akuma’s use it well and use it often. It doesn’t feel like air parry has that status. I don’t really care as much about what the move does, just that it’s a solid option that people can use instead of a parlor trick.
Now this I could see using more often. While it doesn’t have the payoff that baiting a SRK with air parry has, it sounds more solid to me. I could also see it being useful in some air-to-air situations. I’d be down for this.
EDIT: Somehow I missed Raun’s post above before posting this. Ya, having it work air to air might make it too good to spam out…hard to say though. It would be a nice option when you and Akuma both DF at the same time though. I’d be fine with it if it just allowed you to take no damage, as air parry does now, in air to air situations.
what i meant when i said that air parry is better than akuma’s palm is that air parry does something for gouken that no one can do in any other way.
it is a unique tool at his disposal that provides an option no other tool can, even though that option is rarely applicable.
akuma’s palm is not really like that, even though it is a very good move.
akuma uses palm for pressure and wake up setups, but if you took it away, he could do similar things with his other tools.
there is no other way to jump at someone and pass through an aa.
the limitations of the focus system and the pause on landing just make it hurky jerky.
honestly, the main reason i rarely use df parry is because i absolutely cannot stand it when my opponent does not respond.
they are not responding, not because they see that parry coming, no one sees the parry coming because no one uses it.
they are not responding because df flip is fast and hard to respond to in open play, which is why df throw is so good.
it is very very easy to respond to when someone is waking up and they know exactly what time to expect an attack, but it doesnt work at that time.
And to add another one, are they throwing?
The point is not that we want a SRK-style move, but rather the BnB SRK that a lot of characters have does not have to go through all these checks. However, the SRK at worst will trade if the opponent is attacking, and at best will allow you to FADC > Ultra. Counter can potentially FADC to Ultra, but the risk is several times higher than the SRK. All we’re asking is just reduce the risk a little. Instead of 7, maybe 3 checks: high/low, striking, throwing.
I like the idea of an air kongo too, but if the kongo occurs after he lands, then I wonder if the counterattack will miss if the opponent uses a neutral j. AA, attack on the way up. That might be a bit too easy to avoid, especially if the actual counterattack and recovery require a good number of frames too (enough for the opponent to land again). Maybe kongo on hit wherever it occurs, but recovery frames after landing if there is no hit will put Gouken at enough disadvantage to be punished.
Christ I could just imagine an Air kongo now, you’d have to use the same punche to match the button they use to attack (same strength in otherwords) or else your air kongo would fail :clapdos:
well, if they neutral jump in response to a df flip on their wakeup, they are risking df dive kick to pain train.
i dont want df parry to be the universal solvent, that would ruin the character.
currently gouken can safely jump in on a person waking up, but under very specific circumstances.
i am not sure if giving him a useful aa punishment move for wakeup pressure would be op or not, but as long as the opponent has options that are not too obscure, it seems fun.
That’s true, didn’t think about wake up pressure. I was only thinking about how kongo’s current incarnation cannot hit Chun Li’s or Vega’s back jump meaty when Gouken does a wakeup counter, and how that might happen if an anti-air kongo during non-wake up situations can be avoided with Gouken still taking a hit.
A sick taunt would be that ground shockwave animation that he does at the beginning of the match.
Gotcha.
Agreed on both. If you could use it for wake-up mix-ups, it’d instantly make it a viable tool.
Nebuul
1155
See, if you really read him, then you’d know your flip-in was going to be met with a reversal DP. In that case, you’d obviously use the next rank flip to get in safely and punish the whiffed DP. I’m just saying, if you know how a tool works, and you use it in a way you know will fail, you can’t blame the tool.
maybe he is referring to the traumatic first experience that he had with the tool when it looked like it was made to do a certain job but it didnt do that job at all and instead was made to do a job that only occurs once a year on may 3rd.
Dude, really? You think I’m kongoing after a blocked demon flip kick? The point is, it should work. Whiffed DPs don’t whiff with a FADC afterwards. The whole point of a COUNTER is that you predict what your opponent is going to do and then you punish with the counter. It’s really just an example of where you can’t punish even though you know what is coming and then the advantage is lost cause of FADC. Again, even if kongo couldn’t be armor broken you still can’t FADC a counter that wasn’t activated and you are still vulnerable to throws in case you did read wrong.
The amount of limitations given to the counter would make one think it was ENORMOUSLY powerful or something. It’s not. It does 20 more damage then a FP srk. The multiple limitations are ridiculous.
Anyone here frequent capcom-unity much? Check out http://capcom-unity.com/go/suggestion/box . Looks like a way to give some concise, to-the-point suggestions on Gouken.
(Credit to xS A M U R A Ix)
Not a bad call. I wonder if it’d lend more weight if we could come up with a list of changes we all agree on and then each post the same thing? Or maybe it’d just look spammy. I dunno. Just an idea…
I agree. I’d dislike for it to be spammy as well. I tried to compile a comprehensive list of ideas I saw in the posts sometime ago. Most of them are in the 1st post of the thread.
