1021

A counter requires an opponent to do something predictable … if his opponent does nothing his counter is as punishable as a light SRK … yet he has the restrictions of having to not do reversals/armor breaking moves? That’s absolute horseshit.

OMG someone is with me on the only punch for counters <3 fucking hate getting low counter when someone does a stupid jump … should be eating at least 150 dmg or so.

1022

To be honest, the only use of counter is against jump in PREDICTABLE opponents, against viper burning kick, agianst slow overheads ( like gen’s and akuma, probably ryu in some scales ).

Counters, in general, is good when you have godly reflexes, when you read your opponents pattern and if you have the guts to go for it. It is plainly defensive move regardless how you look at it. Usually counter beat every attack according to high or low, and loses to throws.

Now here what makes Gouken counter weaker. Armor breaking moves, like gen’s wall dive or ryu’s tatsu beats Gouken counter. Sure you can bait them, armor breaking moves are usually slow (coughtigerkneecoungh) and punishable (coughNOTtigerkneecough), and adds some though on whether you would throw a counter here or there. Reversal instantly gains armor breaking properties, making “Bait DP with counter on wake up or blockstring” tactic rendered useless, as well as demon flip air parry on wake up or reset a very weak option.

But that is not everything. Unlike other counters, Gouken is not a 0 frame counter. No I do not mean the start up, I mean when you activate the counter. Try using counter on a “cr.mk to hadouken” ryu at poke range. Cr.mk triggers the counter, Gouken lift his hands, ryu cancels his kick, gouken eats hadouken. It should be INSTANT counter. Small things makes the greatest difference, instead of a 2 or 3 frame counter motion, make it a 0 frame, or better yet, make counter like geese, where he throws the opponent after “Countering”. Atleast it would be more appealing and you could actually see how he countered (unless in extreme lag, where it shows frame by frame [thats how I knew he lifts his arms…]).

Countering with throwing is always nice and flashy, but for now atleast fix those reversal and countering animation.

1023

Just started playing with Gouken. Zoning works on those who think jumping is the answer at medium range. Otherwise, you gotta play with some of his other moves

Totally agree. I hate that akuma’s demon flip palm can nerf the counter especially when it’s an EX counter.

1024

Just wanted to add (although its not the same thing), one of Gen’s new ultra apparently does massive focus damage.

1025

Has there been a video of Gen’s ultra yet?

1026

I don’t see unblockable denjin as being any worse than Ryu and Sagat shenanigans…

1027

the fact that low counter is a reverse dp and tatsu is a qcb SUCKS!
because of execution priority, if you are in crouch defense, you have to wait long enough for down back to go away before you can execute your air defense!
if you do not wait long enough, you get a move that gets killed by jump ins!
tatsu is already a 7 frame startup, waiting for down back to go away so you dont accidentally get low counter makes tatsu extremely difficult to use in general play.
please move low counter to one of the punch buttons (or combine low and high counter, they are hard enough to use anyway).
gouken can do some neat stuff with aa tatsu, but it is too clunky to use properly.

1028

^The truth.

The amount of times I’m dunking to bait a jump-in and get Kongoshin is face-palm worthy. :rolleyes:

Of all the clashy command input fuck-ups made by Crapcompany in this game, the aforementioned has to be the most baffling imo… especially given the character’s patent AA related impotence. This, closely followed by the infamous EX palm-Ultra lottery, and in third place the crouching palm-piss-away-full-Super ‘DC inducer’, are irrefutable evidence of how little attention they paid to Gouken’s design. -_-

1029

I’m actually almost convinced that they knew what they were doing when they did the tatsu kongo overlap. I don’t think they wanted him to be able to use Tatsu as an anti air without doing a half circle back. Sounds stupid right? Then again, how could they actually leave this in or not notice it while playtesting? I think they only want it used in combos.

Just think of the implications of giving someone a ground to floor antiair/all purpose attack on command!!! /sarcasm

1030

If you had the reverse SRK + punch buttons reserved for kongo, then what would the third punch be for?

If the Kongo worked for both low and high, then a somewhat logical idea could be the jab, strong, fierce versions varied in the amount of time his kongo stance holds. (I don’t know if that’s even useful.)

Then EX could dish out more damage, perhaps, or have a some juggle property to it.

Anyone thought about this before?

1031

Someone suggested MP as a throw counter.

1032

wow you read my mind i was thinking the same thing when people 1st started talking about Denjin being unblockble, good stun etc etc. i would love for dejin to do decent damage like 400 with decent stun and shoot upwards like sakuras UC2. umm,mmm but will that make him OP if he has that abillity??? They gotta do somethign i mean hes is the MASTER for god sakes. why not have him live up to his so called legenadary skills. umm maybe making a “new move” called power of nothigness were he reflects projectiles or something umm iam jus ttrying to do some creavtive thinking on all of this.

commonn sense new move: “POWER OF NOTHINGNESS”…Just currious as to what ideas people have on what this move will look like and do, also prperties and priorities it will have. Just something else for us to talk baout while discussing Denjin stuff.:tup::tup:

1033

Oops

1034

Umm wow please go back to the ken forums with that bullshit please… Srk fadc my sack in your mouth

1035

there is an edit button you know

1036

I’m surprised people even bother using the tatsu as AA. If it comes out instead of counter, it gets stuffed. if it doesn’t get stuffed, it doesn’t juggle right and they get a free combo ON HIT.

Screw tatsu. Seriously.

Also, you should be able to angle the denjin like sablicous suggested. It wouldn’t be too hard either. Since your holding all three punches to charge, just make the angle of the projectile determined my which button is released first. Maybe something like releasing LP when done charging makes it go the normal horizontal arc, but releasing MP makes it go diagonal? It would be a neat mixup, especially if fully charged was unblockable.

And to everyone saying denjin should’nt be unblockable: I think you’re all forgetting that in SF3, Denjin was a super, and could be super canceled into. Considering Gouken’s denjin is an ultra (CANNOT be canceled into), and outside of sweep and grab everything can be quickstanded, how many situations would gouken be able land a denjin outside of combos, even without charging it (no charge making it terrible, by the way)? Just saying.

1037

i know but its like 30" and my friggin hands are frozen. So said to hell with it

1038

Pandaman64: One way to solve this problem is either make Denjin super fast in both charging and traveling, a speed of Ryu medium or heavy punch super. Charging should be fast enough to be used in combos for good damage and in wake up position after a forward throw.

So things like forward throw -> Denjin full or close to full charge should work, or Palm FADC denjin 2nd charge if quick wake up would work.

Also if anti air fire ball to denjin does not work, it will be extremely useless. I mean atleast make denjin reliable for zoning purposes.

I small suggestion, rather oponion: Lp Counter could be for low counter, against low pokes, Mp counter for med, against anything that is not overhead or low attack, and Hp counter for high (over heads and jump ins) and special attacks, countering attack is going to be a throw (I like Geese…), this grab will throw the opponent forwards for every counter, so I guess you would not combo it unless in corner, where Gouken should be. Armor breaking and reversals should not break Gouken counter this time, and to avoid some hit boxes misses, he will, within 0 frames, grab the opponent with a throw. To avoid glitches against some special moves with lots of invincibility (EX SRK), active frame of the grab after counter will be 7 frames atleast and covers Gouken full body. However it will be purely for physical counter purposes, no projectile countering. His air parry will recover instantly if it parries, it wont lose to reversals armor breaking properties so he can actually has some resets against characters with SRK.

Also for EX counter he covers every area, low med and high, deals the same damage and have the same recovery. However his throw would launch the opponent upwards, which can be comboed to tatsu, palm, Heavy punch to demon flip reset, super or his first ultra or 2nd ultra half charged.

These are mere oponions on how it would be possible to buff Gouken counter, which is similar to ryu DP to ultra crap, only harder. You must be rewarded for countering, whether on high level play or scrub level.

1039

I think counter should stay the same in terms of the animation and effect. You turn it into a throw you lose the ability to cancel into super or FADC to Ultra or a palm. D3v had posted on unity that they should take away srk motion leniency, i.e. require that the SRK motion end in the down diagonal. This would pretty much eliminate the problems for everyone, not just Gouken (bison teleport etc). You could still have the DF, D, DF srk as leniency would be there for the F, and D, motions but the last motion would have to be a DF. THis means if you did tatsu from a defensive position you would never get a Kongo because the game would never recognize that last input as a DF.

1040

There are a bunch of ways to “fix” the denjin ultra, but my point is, as the ultra is right now, even making it unblockable wouldn’t be that good, certainly not as OP as people are suggesting. It sure as hell wouldn’t make me give up Shin shoryuken.

As fas as counter goes, I don’t think it needs anything. At the least, it doesn’t need as much as tatsu needs. Counter pretty much does what it’s supposed to.