OK, maybe #R Baiken can do more than XX Baiken. Could she do them before, or is the fact that most everyone’s easy shit was removed forced people to use options that they would rather not?
And Prowess, how is that madness? Jam got a major upgrade, while Baiken and Johnny lost most everything that made them competitive in XX without gaining much in return.
And Iceman is right, you guys haven’t made any argument as to why Johnny and Baiken shouldn’t be ranked any higher (or lower) than they are already.
To put it as short as possible without explaining any more than I actually feel like it–
I play both Jon and Jam. I actually dispise Baiken and everything she is about, me and Zakutas arguements can attest to this. That given, I am not going to support Baiken in any shape form or fasion :lol:.
Anyways…
My comment “Its madness” was used generally. It has nothing to do with the fact that Jon or Baiken were weakened. It was more spicifically in response to your ranking of both of them. Jon got tweaked, but he is far from without all of the things that made him top tier in XX. He still has the gay ass coin, he still has mist finer loops off it. He still covers angles better than anyone in the game. And can zone better than almost the intire cast without using projectiles. He can still mist cancle he is just limited to where it is beneficial for him to use it. He still takes excellent damage and he is one of the few characters you will ever see on high level (besides the obvious god tier club) make force characters like Sol, Slayer, Eddy, Millia, Faust, etc etc normally untouchable characters to not only work harder, but to literally turtle. Because they cant get near him unless he makes a mistake. This may sound like one sided critique to you, but if you have ever actually played a real Johny you understand this. You get inside and punish- if you let him keep you just at the tip of his 2d range you are a dead man. Japanese overcome alot of the problems with Jon because they can instant block at will, but americans are there yet. What you are trying to say is that Jon is weaker because of changes, when in truth he is merely balanced. But if you dont play him you dont understand this. Watch the european finals at console league for XX and you will see just how broken Jon was. They fixed what made him cheap, they didnt take away what made him good. The same would probably hold true to Baiken if she wasnt a bitch… :evil:@Zakuta
As far as Jam is concerned, I agree with you that she has greatly improved, but putting her as high as 6th is not realistic. The obvious top tiers would be Eddy, Slayer, Millia, Faust, closely followed by Sol, Robo Ky, Jon, Axle, Pot, Yuri, etc etc… technically you are trying to say that Jam falls roughly dead center, which for the lack of any other commonplace word to describe it, is bull shit.
This would at least be slightly TANGABLE, if we were all japanese… but we arent. In american rankings Jam is no where near that high and Jon is no where near that low. Because we are no where near thier level of perfected execution, and likely, Jam, Zappa, and other characters which require ungodly amounts of consistancy to play with will never be as good to us as thier japanese counterparts. And while I hate pulling the jap card myself, this fact is very real…
On another note, I personally doubt very seriously that Jon is ranked lower than Baiken- you can safely say that is bias, but trying my best to be fair about it, I dont see how Baiken beats Jon at all IMHO. But that is another discussion.
i don’t agree with this at all, well for the most part anyways. Slayer, he is good, but not top and neither is millia. Slayer becomes too predictable - by any player after about 5 matches of observation. Johnny, Testament, Anji, Ky (especially i think), Jam, and briget deserve a space up. Zappa and Pot, i agree for their placement, but all i have to say is that when they are played right, they belong at the top. Same with chipp. Chipp can own anyone if played flawlessly… but not many can. Zappa is freaking awesome too. Not too many people bother to learn Zappa here in the states which is why you see him at the bottom alot of times.
Basically, in GGXX, there are no tiers. This game is way to balanced to have a tiers. Only character that i feel just totally sucks is May, but everyone else is pretty equal when used by the right player. Only characters i’m scared to go up against are Johnny players who have learned to MC consistantly and Eddie players.
Lvl2 mist finer does less damage, so the loops only do a fraction of what the did before.
The covering angles thing is open to debate (Axl and Bridget make strong cases). But Johnny does not zone better than everyone w/o using projectiles, Axl does. And projectiles or no there’s some characters who out zone him (Axl, Eddie, Buri, maybe Faust).
Which is a polite way of saying it was toned down and is not as good as before.
This wasn’t even true in XX. Johnny beats Sol in XX (and he still might do it in #r, most of those tools work fine), he’s not terrible against Millia in XX, but in #r some of what Johnny needed to keep her out and honest has been weakened (6p, mist cancels, somewhat s.slash). Slayer match sucked in XX and sucks in #r. Mist Canceling doesn’t work when you’re target goes through the move. Johnny does make Eddie play a zoning game, but why is that bad? In XX and #r Eddie doesn’t mind zoning Johnny (still need to play THIS fight more in #r). Fause was not fun but was winnable. IMO Faust is not top tier in #r anyway.
Because it is one-sided. Eddie doesn’t want to get near him anyway (until he is ready to do so), Faust is fine from long range. Millia can get close (but Johnny has the tools to keep up), yes he has the edge on Sol, and Slayer makes it quite easy for Johnny to make mistakes (dash cancel, dashing period, d-step). BTW, why did you have to end a respectable arguement with the cry of scrubs “If you have ever played a real ___” has been the scrub proverb since 2000. It’s 2004. Johnny’s a popular character, and like all popular characters in every game people HAVE played against him.
If by balanced you mean that every character under him either gets improved or breaks even (except Baiken and maybe Testament), then yes he was very well balanced. But the fact that a couple of the characters above him got improvments (Axl, Bridget) or at least just changed but not really toned down (Slayer somewhat, Bridget might belong here), means that compared to everyone else, Johnny doesn’t favor as well as before. The fact Johnny can still do damage is a complement to #r’s balance, but the fact remains there are A LOT more characters above him now than below, and #r is relatively the weakest Johnny yet.
Arguably the 2nd best player in the US is a Jam/Johnny player in XX (he’s definatly top 5 in the US). Oh, and Eddie is good in the US and in Japan. That arguement doesn’t hold much water imo. The reason Jpn is better is because of the game is bigger there, the competition is greater, and the tournament entries are larger.
Oh and Jam top 10 is not crazy. She’s even faster (walking and air dash) now than before(!!). She can use her “slide at them/behind them” mix-ups w/o fear because they are relatively safe now. Some key moves do more damage (standing close slash comes to mind making FRC throw scarier). Charge ups are quicker. And her standing dust is better (I’d never thought that one frame would matter so much). The new Jam is a beast. Thank god more of her moves damage scale or else she’d be like GGX Millia :lol:
I can’t compliment on a full tier list since there has yet to be one released for #R but I do know a couple things.
Anji is now lower mid, somwhere in the 10-13 range I believe. Anji is one of the most improved characters from his XX version and while he still falls a good ways short of being top tier, he’s been given more tools and more strengths.
Johnny is still in the 10 ten. The biggest bitchfest about #R has been people talking about how johnny got raped. He is undoubtedly more difficult to play, but he’s still upper mid tier, anyone who’s knows whats what in #R will agree with that. I can’t compliment in detail since I don’t play Johnny, but pretty much the consensus has become that Johnny is still very good after people get over the initial changes and added challenge of his #R version.
Lastly tiers are even more irrelevant in #R than they were in XX. The balance was improved on an already well balanced game. I really hope it gets brought stateside this year.
I don’t see how I can trust anyone’s opinion on this thread.
Why not just wait and look at the Arcadia rankings like everyone else? Even though they’re not exactly a tier list, it’s still what pretty much everyone based their tier list on in GGXX.
I hear May is much improved, though. That makes me happy.
OK, I’ll make this blunt. Johnny got hurt. He has more recovery, lots of damage correction on most of his B&B moves, and some of his most useful chains were removed. How can you spin this to say “He’s still upper mid tier”?! They added virtually nothing of use to his game, while hurting most of his options. What did they give Johnny that still makes him as viable a threat? Johnny still top 10, bullshit. Eddie, Slayer, Millia, Faust, Potemkin, Robo-Ky, Venom, Jam, Axl, I-no. Right there you have ten, count them ten characters better than Johnny. I can keep going (Sol, Ky, Dizzy, Bridget, etc.), but I think my point is served.
Jam on the other hand is virtually back to her GGX incarnation sans FCD.
You guys need to realize a truth about Guilty Gear as a game. Everybody is a viable character, because everyone has something that they can do to really hurt you. That’s the balance; everyone has/had some major bullshit they can do. What may appear as minor tweaks to a character can radically change their game. And don’t use “Well so-and-so character can do this.” Everyone can has their own this. Tell me why one characters this is better than another characters this.
I’ll get the ball rolling, Johnny’s this involves risk where as his this used to be high damage and quite safe. Compared to the majority of the 14 characters ryucross lists, who’s junk is still pretty safe.
POTEMKIN rapes all, rush that shity down and everyone gets scared, most of these fools in here have no fuckin clue about what their saying, unless u have used and mastered a character u cannot say, with weight, if a character now sucks or got toned down, because in all lickly hood u jus fucked around with them because ur bored and now u cant do easy combos or timing is different. UR ALL FUCKIN SCRUBS
Actually he is quite solid, especially in #r it seems, but his basic design just gives him too many bad matchups (i.e. Faust, Axl, Dizzy, Bridget, probably Robo-Ky).
EDIT: Johnny was pretty much on the same level as Sol in XX…not quite top-tier. And Baiken was mid-level at best in that game. I had a theory that Arc tried so hard to weaken them, as well as Dizzy, in #R because they all placed top 4 in the Sammy Cup, but the many improvements made to Dizzy kinda put a hole in that. =P
What I want to know the most is which moves from Dizzy have been improved the most that does make her better and the other moves that have been toned down?
I haven’t played #Reload at all but from what I heard, Dizzy’s bubble is improved while her FRC Ice Spike is toned down. Is they’re anything else besides that?
Dizzy’s positive changes are interesting. Her Dust is better now (faster and less recovery, more blockstun). 2H is probably her main damage-dealing move, since it’s now FRCable (they reduced its damage and made it start a little slower, but it does added stun damage). Sweep is way better since the recovery was cut and it has more reach, plus it’s FRCable. 6H causes stagger on CH and is FRCable. Bubble comes out faster and the explosion is larger, plus she falls slower (makes it much easier to hit afterwards with air attacks). Her Fish Lasers are active for much longer now and cover the screen better. Imperial Ray does more damage. The only real negatives are her Ice Spike (less damage and FRC point is MUCH later, screwing up her combo game with it), it’s easier to hit her out of standing H, and jump D is active for less time now. Any other changes are pretty insignificant. It seems like she got better, just harder to deal out damage because of weakened Ice Spike.
BTW, anyone who thinks Johnny is still in the same position tier-wise as he was in XX is borderline insane. Almost all the other characters were overall improved, while he was just fucking shafted with almost no significant improvement. Far S is much worse as a poke. 2S sucks now. Thanks to the scaling on his Mist Finers, all of his good combos do much less damage now; it is MUCH easier to run out of coins because landing one or two doesn’t win you the match anymore. His Mist Cancels are slower unless you have a level 2 (same speed as XX) or level 3 (faster than XX). Combos off of the throw do even less damage now. Ensenga landing recovery is longer and both hits have base damage correction now, plus it’s much harder to get 1 hit Ensenga without RCing. The only small improvements are that his level 1 finers come out faster and all his finers recover faster and do more blockstun, making them safer on block (big whoop). If everyone else had stayed the same, people MIGHT have an argument for him being about the same position in the tiering, but almost everyone else got better, for the most part, so you don’t have a foot to stand on. Johnny is not good anymore, and he certainly isn’t high tier (he wasn’t top tier in XX, either). By and far this is the worst Johnny’s ever been; you want a top tier Johnny, try X Johnny. Get knocked down and you die.
The icespike FRC got raped. It’s ridiculously late now; you can’t use it in pressure games anymore, and to combo after it you must IAD (resulting in much less damage).
However, thanks mainly to the bubble, she has better pressure overall. I’m not sure of the specifics here, as I don’t play Dizzy, but I’ve seen one of my friends perform this corner lockdown that was in a recent Arcadia and it’s pretty sick. Builds full guard meter very easily…apparently there’s a midscreen variant too.
Oh, there’s also the low HS FRC. This is very useful because low HS is her highest-priority normal (as a Buri player, for instance, I know that move beats all of the little guy’s ground normals, EVERY TIME), and it allows her to do combos similar to the old FRC icespike ones.
Thanks guys. I have used Dizzy’s bubble quite a bit in GGXX even though it’s uses was limited but I’m glad she falls slower after the bubble recovery. The low HS FRC sounds much better since the Ice Spike has been toned down. IMO I’m thinking Dizzy got better in the air since both of you mentioned the larger radius burst of her bubble.
its funnie that eddie is top tier/ #1 because the other day i played this game for the first time and i rondomly decided to use him and i whooped all my friends asses who had been playing the game 4 ever it was truly awesome GO EDDIE!
“If you have ever played a real ___” has been the scrub proverb since 2000. It’s 2004. Johnny’s a popular character, and like all popular characters in every game people HAVE played against him.