weird, if i have some time tonight i may play around with it. I noticed a similar effect (nothing so pronounced though) when i was testing cr.mk being used as a meaty.
TAP OS vs Dhalsim
Funnily enough, I asked PR Rog if he could demonstrate jab/ultra option-select earlier today that he uses to catch backdashers. I think it’s somewhat similar to the Bison OS U1 3nigmat1c posted earlier, without the dash. The dash might only be needed for Bison, because his Ultra is kinda slow.
EDIT: I’ll just include the video, since not everyone may have seen it.
I was also wondering if there was a list somewhere hidden in this thread of what Balrog’s raw U1 could punish (apart from any character’s dp that doesn’t break Balrog’s back charge).
Off the top of my head -
Oni - EX hurricane (on block)
Chun - EX SBK (on block)
Juri - EX pinwheel (on block), wake up counter
Blanka - any ball (on block)
Dee Jay - EX sobat (on block)
Honda - Any headbutt in the corner (I think), buttslam (whiff)
Viper - Burn kick (on whiff)
Makoto - axe kick (on whiff), command grab (on whiff)
Bison - EX psycho crusher (on block and it passes through Balrog), back teleport (if you use that OS), devil’s reverse/head stomp followup (do it when Bison is closer to the ground and has to land in front of you)
Zangief - Lariat (both versions on block I think), SPD (whiff)
T.Hawk - Condor dive (on block), SPD (whiff)
Gouken - wake up parry/counter
Seth - stretch arms (on block)
Rufus - cr.HP (on block)
Hakan - oil (if this is mistimed during your knockdown for example)
Guy - EX hurricane (on block)
Dudley - parry/counter
These are the less obvious ones I can remember.
The dash ultra OS would allow us to use a normal other than the jab, the reason the jab works is it chains which takes priority.
the dash OS seems more of a ‘traditional’ OS with swallowed inputs.
Not sure exactly what benefits we get from using a different normal though, I guess some meaty setups?
I have a few notes on ultra punishes (non obvious, on block), haven’t gone through the whole cast yet but:
Abel - Wheel Kick(Non EX), Change of Direction (Last), CR.HK
Akuma -Demon Flip Slide, CL.HP, CR.HK(not max)
Blanka - CR.HP, FS.HK
C.Viper - Close Seismo(Non EX)
Cammy - CL.HK
Chun-Li - Spinning Bird Kick(EX)
Cody - Ruffian Kick(HK, EX?I think it’d have to be pretty specific spacing?)Criminal Upper(HK, EX)Bad spray, CR.HK
Dee Jay - Machinegun Upper(Non EX), FS.HK
Dhalsim - Sniper J.HP(On Hit)
Dudley - Thunderbolt
E.Honda - Headbutt(MP, HP)
Evil Ryu - Hurricane Kick(LK), CR.HP, CR.HK
Fei Long - Rekka Ken(2nd=HP,3rd=ALL), CL.HP, CL.HK, CR.HK
Gen - CR.HK(Crane)
Gouken - Demon Flip Slide
Guile - CR.HP
Guy - Tatsu(ALL), CR.HK(close)
I have no idea how to handle Bison’s pressure.
What do I do to stop him?
Overall, I don’t have too much advice other than don’t let him start his pressure, don’t let him get away.
(balrog has great OS’ vs Bison)
The thing that helped me that i read on here once is that after scissor kick you can cr.mp and usually get a CH on there pressure or recover in time to block, so if they’re doing scissor kick pressure on you, there’s that.
Not letting him get started is definitely the easiest way to not have to deal with his pressure, but generally it’s going to happen right? This is my advice, I play dictator as my secondary so i use this too although my dictator is hella elementary.
So without further ado, All of dictator’s damage comes from you trying to get away, forreal. Bison’s buttons are cr.lk, st.mk, st.hk and scissor kicks. These buttons are used to force you to want to stay on the ground, attempt to jump, or tech a throw. Get away from him, don’t hold back, but backdash or focus attack backdash. Some Dictators have a pattern, they always want to keep you in block stun long enough to get enough back-charge to scissor kick you to slowly push you in the corner.
For example: scissor kick, st.mk, walk forward, st.hk, walk forward cl.lk, cl.lk xx lk.sk, delay, st.hk, walk forward, cl.lk, cr.lk walk forward throw so forth and so on. if you’re in the mood to burn meter, ex.ds beats all of his options but ex.sk an ex.pc (although it will probably trade), it will flat out beat non ex.scissor kicks.
If you’re mid-sceen, mash backdash, it’ll probably work the first time until they’re looking for it. Although bison’s safe range for scissor kicks are very deceptive (like the effective range for Balrog’s headbutt), you can counter poke with cr.hk at certain ranges. Reacting with headbutt is the best, but for me thats impossible.
Don’t be afraid to block for a long time, also focus fishing helps since all of his attacks have a significant amount of recovery (e.g. st.hk you can focus dash and throw although its not a punish). Also be ready to punish any max distance scissor kicks with a lvl 2 focus attack if you’re fishing.
Also remember that although Balrog can O/S Dictators wakeup with O/S TAP, he can beat it with ex devil’s reverse or backdash.
Edit: st.lp and walk back cr.mp can counterpoke st.hk and scissor kick respectively.
Alright, this is some random tech, i think could be useful (maybe?).
Cliffs: Balrog can maintain the input for dirty bull long enough to walk forward and perform it.
Everyone should be aware of Zangief’s kara-grab now (link). I thought to do the same with Balrog’s Dirty bull, given his pre-jump frames are rather normal which make it’s utility pretty nil. Didn’t have much success in terms of increasing the range of his U2 any noticeable amount. I used nj.hp (no wiggle) then neutral jump U2 which is out of range, if you wiggle forward you’re in range on hit and block. Whether or not I was doing it right (no clue), there wasn’t any noticeable change.
I started playing around and remembered being told about buffering his U2 after a jab back in super when the input was a 720. So I decided to use cr.mk since it was relatively as positive on block as a cr.lp and was a low with more range. I found that If I did cr.mk, buffered the 720 (and later the 2xHCB), I could hold forward, Balrog would walk a step and then do U2. Meaning that after a blocked (or ostensibly on hit) cr.mk, I could walk forward U2.
This could possibly be extended for punishes (e.g. if on block it’s -4 or so but out of range, you could buffering during the blockstun, hold forward, walk and punish since U2 is 1f. I’ll post a video for proof of concept, and keep looking and possibly see if this opens up more punishes/uses for U2.
been trying to see if Rog has any move that can be KARa but unfortunately its only the EX specials that can and its very little distance. I guess walk up U2 is the best bet. especially after a crJab on block
Heyyyy I was going to have to play that guy at Shadowloo showdown. he got elimed by Toxy before me though anyway.
Does anyone know what normal is used? I want to teach my local Ken so that I can practice against it.
Had a read of the Dhalsim matchup notes. Pretty complete, thorough and practical. The headbutt through Sim’s U1 I never realised was possible until a few days ago.
Mentions attacking whiffed limbs, but not necessarily attacking predicted limbs. May or may not want add specifics.
If you can predict -
***- Sim st.HP ***=> sweep, OS cr.lp/cr.mp xx dash straight
- Yoga sniper => cr.HP or even headbutt (if you’re confident)
**** Most Yoga snipers can also be punished on block (as well as on hit) with dash smash/MP dash straight/EX dash upper (if you don’t have or don’t want to use super/Ultra). It’s a lot easier to punish Sim when he’s airborne near the corner, since it limits his landing space.*
**
***- Instant air Yoga teleport (usually into j.HP “long arms”) ***=> cr.HP, headbutt (if charged)
- Outstretched kick limbs => st.MK
Oh yeah, one more thing. May want to differentiate Instant Air Teleport from the ground teleport - how the instant air teleport is the one with the least recovery and used for teleport shenanigans/mixups, whereas the ground teleport is used mainly for escapes but has considerable recovery compared to the instant air. I might be retarded, but I never thought about distinguishing both. It might help people understand how Sim work I guess.
EDIT: You can probably see most of this in action here.
And here (as well as a lot of overheads -.-)
Thanks! TBH i haven’t had a decent sim to play against consistently since Super. Originally i had an article linked from Xaaz and Jav1ts (the first balrog scientists), they’d found ways to punish yoga sniper on hit and block (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaUWTPTv22k).
On the subject of U1, it can be used to beat safe jumps, i’ve mentioned it before but in short because of its single frame of invincibility and hitstop, the projectiles startup is covered by those “innocuous” frames and it can hit you airborne. Keep this in mind when safe jumping Dhalsim. With that said, it’s MUCH better to hit him with meaty’s on the ground since it prevents him from teleporting on wakeup. By teleport i mean the instant air teleport (the one that matters), Safe jumps can be beat with U1, but meaties can only be beat by backdashing or performing a ground teleport.
You mention of the buttons is really helpful too, I’m pretty terrible against Dhalsim because i lack the patience and I really can’t block. I think that cl.hp is REALLY good for Sim’s attempts to mix you up with instant air teleport behind j.hp, cl.hp is really fast and has a hitbox situated to combat those kind of attacks.
For anyone else interested, this may also be of some help:
Yep I’ve already watched that a while back and watched it again recently. I kinda have the same problem with patience too.
Yeah I agree, I found out the hard way that jumping on Sim with U1 loaded isn’t always the best idea, unless you do it unsuspectingly (like walking their knocked-down corpse into the corner and neutral jumping at the very last second). I tried timing meaty’ish hits instead, but found my timing online, combined with Sim mashing throw, would just throw me out most of time unfortunately. The sadness of online.
I also tested ways of somewhat countering teleport into j.HP or that j. (back+HP) headbutt normal. I agree with you close st.HP is the best - starts up the fastest and on counter-hit will do a whopping 150 damage. I used to think cr.HP would work in all situations, but a lot of times it will get flat out beat. I think MP headbutt will always work, HP headbutt misses or trades or something I think. I could be wrong though. Don’t think I used headbutt once to counter teleport shenanigans, because I was too confident in cr.HP and sometimes wasn’t aware if I had down-charge.
Also, Balrog’s ultra doesn’t seem to be able to catch a maximum distance yoga sniper. Even if you do manage to punish with Ultra, the juggle damage is kinda abysmal. Not only that, but I couldn’t seem to find whether the juggle should be KKKKK, PPKKK or whatever.
Also, I haven’t tested this, but if Sim covers his teleport behind you with a fireball first (like on knockdown perhaps), Balrog might have no choice but to block. But as I said I haven’t tested this, and I’m not great at the tiger-knee teleport motion. So, if I record the situation in training mode, my teleport won’t be the absolute lowest to ground one.
I think the most annoying thing I found about dhalsim (at least online), was them just going nuts with LK slide. If I read the frame data right it starts up in 3 frames. Completely threw off my timing for jabs, tick throws etc. It was kinda ridiculous how much mileage the sim I played got off of it. I’d go for jab/tick throw/frame trap, then suddenly get hit with slide and get thrown instead. Sad days. Been watching Arturo and Champ play Sim a bit to see if this is a common occurrence, but they don’t seem to do it at all. I guess it’s an online only thing.
Hello, Dhalsim match-up… a toughie, mostly thought of being in Balrog’s favor, but anyone here would tell you at times it certainly doesn’t feel that way. I have a couple of approaches to this match-up that I thought would be a worthy addition to the thread.
The opening gambit can be quite beneficial for the rog player as an immediate Cr. Roundhouse beats almost any starting limb from Sim. Another option is to use a Cr. Short and buffer a light straight behind it, this even beats a starting low-hitting limb and nets you a nice chunk of damage with the follow-up dash. This isn’t a sure fire thing, but it can definitely help in getting an early lead.
Speaking of Cr. Short I believe this to be a super reliable way to whiff punish Sims St. Fierce. Yes, Cr. Roundhouse hits considerably harder and enables you to get in, but if you’re an old man with old man reactions like myself I’d stick with Cr. short, quick and reliable.
When it comes to dealing with limbs outside of that opening gambit, allowing St. Fierce(s) to whiff can be just as beneficial as punishing them on reaction. Standing right outside of its range and following with an MP dash straight will beat out any attempt at stuffing you with any limb or FB (these will mostly hit as counters). If Dhalsim blocks it he’d just be blocking a max range MP straight without much of a punish available to him outside of maybe a super.
Lastly I’d like to say that given the right spacing jumping in at Sim when you have him cornered isn’t that bad of an idea if you really think he’ll slide out. Jumping in with LK. warps your jump angle and allows you to hit his LK slide-under attempt and possibly get a combo depending on how late you hit.
I think that about covers the major points I wanted to touch upon, any other things I apply are usually player dependent. Hope that helps.
J.
You can’t do a kara as a reversal since you have to have the startup of whatever you’re kara-cancelling into (e.g. when Balrog does ex.ru armor cancelled into ex.hb, it has more than 12f of startup (no clue how to test this). It generally doesn’t matter but that’s why you can’t reversal kara throw. This also goes for unthrowables since you cancel you pre-jump frames into a special, one of the ways you know you did an unthrowable correctly is that you don’t see the reversal signage.
I tested this out against a couple of characters and it seems to be a specific hitbox interaction against Hakan when he’s unoiled. You can do this off of any knockdown that allows you to get sufficiently close, you just walk up to Hakan’s on knockdown and press cr.mk just as he’s waking up (never meaty, just where you see him getting up when he’s still invincible). It’ll cause all SPDs to whiff, but only non-oiled.
I tried it against Abel/Makoto/Zangief/T. Hawk etc. It’s specific to Hakan but only when unoiled.
Also, something that Jonas brought to my attention: Hakan can reversal lk.oil dive to punish TAP up close (IT MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE). It has something to do with crouch-delay, you could possibly mash a button to force crouch delay but I wasn’t successful when trying. You can’t backdash or jump to avoid the oil dive, you can headbutt though -_- . Seems to work at just inside max distance.
It’s lesser known afaik. I guess that’s tit for tat.
I think the most relaxing thing to keep in mind about Akuma is that his advantage exists only when he knocks you down. His only tool that makes him unique as far as footsies go is: (1) his ability to kara demon and (2)air fireball. Those are the two things you really have to worry about on the ground. I am by no means saying that the match is in Balrogs favor (well it is until he gets knocked down).
From the neutral game, the main thing you have to get used to is his walk speed. It seems like a really small aspect, but this very easily is his scariest tool since he can walk in and out of your effective footsie range almost unchallenged. It also makes cr.mp really scary (e.g. cr.mp, cr.mp, walk up through, walk up cr.mp etc) Basic information: you can beat jump back fireball with short smash. If you can get away with it, poking with smash is good since it breaks focus and can’t be low profiles by cr.mk. Akuma’s ground fireball is not really good and if cancelled into from a cr.mk is NEVER a block string.
Its a hard matchup, Akuma, Seth, Chun-Li (by no means in order). Best advice is practice. You find an Akuma you can play a couple of matches, harang him and play a while, get comfortable to one Akuma’s playstyle and then pick out the tools. Try to play a match without getting knocked down, then play again and get knocked down, it may give you a better perspective on what’s actually hard about the match. Also if Akuma doesn’t pick U2, be happy that there’s something you know and he doesn’t. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajvoh5pcPbY&list=PL465EB3F77ED8C007#t=455)
If someone else has some match videos to watch for high level play, please suggest.
Can we say that Hakan vs Rog is 7 - 3 
??
I don’t think it’s that bad. I think it’s more of an experience thing. When i was at Absolute Battle in Dallas, I played Coco Banana Man and another Hakan player for a lot of sets. It’s not unwinnable, but i do think you have to run away really well and manage his oil time. Like when Hakan’s unoiled Rog has more freedom to control the match, but when he has oil. Rog doesn’t have any safe buttons. Trying to land a throw (or get a throw teched) I feel is the safest way to eat up his oil time although the positioning after is in hakan’s favor.
I think the strongest ability is being able to react to oil dives with headbutt, mashing jabs to beat oil dive setups on wakeup (I don’t know if this works with the block stun setups). and spacing really well so that he can’t oil up for free. I think that’s one of rogs best tools in this match in that Hakan can’t oil up safely within 3/4 screen because of rogs step dash punch or step smash.
Hakan is a lot tougher to play without oil and loses all of his frame advantage by far without it, there’s also balrog’s hitbox trick with cr.mk on his wakeup (youtube.com/watch?v=uBVhdm24Piw&list=PL10D4637D008C84F4. So without oil you can pressure him relatively heavy on his wakeup i feel, the cr.mk should recover fast enough to block anything and to reaction st.hp or cr.hk if he backdashes since he doesn’t travel anywhere near as far without oil.
So yes…7-3, its a bit better when he doesn’t have oil though.
That cr.mk whiff is brilliant!
I’ll try that trick next time because honestly there’s just a couple of good Hakan’s out here.