Haven’t gotten to guy yet, what problem are you having though?
-I do know that ex.shoulder rush can be grabbed and his air-grab can only grab you jumping and standing, and also that bit about blocking his spin kick and then pressing up+forward to get a full jump-in on his recovery that jav1ts posted.
Yeah I know that too but I need something on how to approach the MU instead of just knowing what to punish.
Few things I noticed yesterday (I played more than 50 matches):
- All shoulder versions can be punished except lp (-2/-4/-6/-6)
- His slide is punishable if he does it close and far I believe. Checked the frame data and it says -9 on block. I was punishing with c.lp, c.lk xx HB (although I believe he stands so EX Upper would work) if done close and reversal lp DS if done from afar. I though only close could be punished but either he didn’t block any of the more than 10/15 times or it really is punishable from every range.
- Cancel into shoulder is not a true blockstring and you can HB before the shoulder connects (not sure if it’s this way for every cancel so it needs confirmation).
- It’s really hard to link after an OH if he is crouching (both c.mp and c.lk work but timing is very hard) unless you absorve one hit with the ex version. In that case c.mp it’s not that hard and you can cancel into HB.
- I need to confirm if run OH kick is safe on block or not. Don’t know what the Frame data says on that move on block.
At first I was having problems dealing with the flip and elbow but then I started to AA with c.hp, HB and jump back mp/hp. All of them have pros and cons. c.hp can be beat if he delays the jump with the elbow drop. HB you have to do it really late because you risk going under and be punished. Jump back mp works great but does no damage and you have to instant press mp after the jump and you may get mp HB instead if you were crouching. jump back HP trades most of the time if Guy is right above your head but works great if you’re at a distance. Elbow drop can cross up and if he goes for this you can walk forward land on the other side and punish with clp clp clk HB or you can lp DS under him and punish aswell. One thing importante Guy hitbox is very weird so sometimes you do clp clp and clk whiffes at ranges it doesn’t on other chars. So reduce your hitconfirms into HB or use c.mp.
Dash punches get beat a lot by his 2 hit sweep but ex dash sweep and smash beats it.
If he neutral jump on your wake up delay the HB or you will go under.
Ex HB whiffes if Guy does is 2 hit sweep. So on wake up don’t use EX HB if he tends to do this nor dash straight/upper. If you ex dash punch is slide be ready to tech similar to Dhalsim.
i will try to update this post if I remember something and maybe I’ll find the time to go to the training mode and confirm a few things.
in the c viper section it says that her forward + MP doesn’t hit high… that move is definitely an overhead
PSYCHO DICTATOR
Vipers toward strong does not hit high. It hits mid. If it hit high then low blocks would beat it, which they don’t. Low blocks beat low and high attacks but lose to mid attacks, high blocks beat high and mid attacks but lose to low attacks. It is also not a typical grounded overhead because she goes airborne during start up, essentially making it a command jump in. You could say it’s an overhead in the same sense that you could say any jump in normal is an overhead. Arguing that it is or is not an overhead is pointless since it defies simple classification. It is what it is; a grounded command normal that goes airborne during start up and hits mid. Call it what you want.
Any tips vs rose?
Duly noted and updated.
Keep me posted, his bnb (target combo to shoulder charge) is a juggle so not a block string. After some brief testing, the shoulder charge is maad slow, only ex will combo from all normals, lp shoulder-charge will combo from st.hp though.
FYI (for everyone) if in doubt as to whether a combo is a block string or not, just go into training mode and record the combo, if its a true block string, autoguard should cause you to block after you block the initial hit with the controller in neutral. If at any time you get hit during the recorded combo, that’s when it’s not a true block string.
Extra info on Honda MU.
On Honda’s wakeup
[details=Spoiler]
[LIST]
[]Oicho loses to headbutt and super/ultra, but wins against dash specials, wake-up normals, TAP and block. Wake-up situation can be reset by neutral jumping or backdash.
[]headbutt loses to block, super/ultra,but wins against backdash, EX specials and TAP sometimes. Wake-up situation can be reset by EX.HB (recovery depends on what strength HB he uses), neutral jump, jump back hp in corner.
[]sumo smash loses to cr.hp at certain ranges, ex.ds (because wakeup moves break armor) and by cr.lp/st.lp on whiff, wins against backdash and wakeup normals. Wake-up situation can be reset by headbutt (if he does ex), you will recover before him, crouching may also reset the situation if he doesn’t use lk.ss.
[]DF.HK on wake-up is a toss up, can be kara’d (cancelled w/o blocking/hitting) into sumo-smash or oicho.
[/LIST][/details]
Punishes
[details=Spoiler]
Headbutt
[LIST]
[]non ex can be stuffed by cr.mp, cr.lp on startup and on reaction mid/full screen.
[]lp.hb/mp.hb can be avoided alltogether with TAP (difficult).
[]lp.hb/ex.hb punishable by super, block high.
[]mp.hb/hp.hb punishable by lp.ds, super/ultra1 (no frame trick),
[/LIST]
Sumo Smash (overhead)
[LIST]
[]non ex can be stuffed by cr.mp on start-up
[]if spaced, cr.hp will AA every SS on its way down
[]possible to dash under mk.ss\hk.ss (auto-correct dash ultra probable)
[]hk.ss is punishable on block by cr.lp into BnB
[]can be punished by U2 on block, and can be punished on whiff, but he recovers VERY quickly
[/LIST]
oicho throw
[LIST]
[]not invincible, can be jabbed or thrown, 5 frame command grab
[]backdash is airborne, will avoid oicho
[/LIST]
Super/Ultra
[LIST]
[]Can be beat clean by ex.HB
[/LIST][/details]
that bison headstomp/reverse tip is some handy information.
Ok then I was right. Since lp Shoulder is safe on block this guy was using st.hp xx lp shoulder as pressure. But you can HB between the st.HP and the lp Shoulder. Just like you can HB between Ryus’ cmk xx Hadou from a distance.
ya, very similar, it’s only cl.hp though, so he might always be in range for the shoulder to combo on hit. Frame advantage between block and hit is five frames and the recovery is exactly 19 (the SU of the elbow charge is 19), so you should definitely be able to attack inbetween at least since you recover sooner than him. [in support of what you already said lol] cr.lp and throw are options, dunno if the cr.lp will beat it clean or trade depending on his hurtbox.
Got a feeling that it will trade or lose completely since it seems like his hitbox is completely in front of his hurtbox. Haven’t found hitbox pictures of the shoulder rush yet though.
Found a use for the extra post
Extra Dudley Notes
[details=Spoiler]
[LIST]
[]Headbutt loses to non-ex Ultra 2 because the hitbox for U2 hits his leg since he only has upper body invincibility while ex has full body invincibility.
[]DP FADC dash forwards and backwards was punishable by super in testing.
[]One of the weirdest things with dudley is knowing when you leave hitstun to actually get a reversal. It seems that you recover as soon as his fists leave your body, this is especially important for Ultra 1 and cr.mp reversal punish for a blocked ex.mgb.
[]normal cancels into light ducking followup are blockstrings really close in, but at max distance they can be grabbed on startup. This is even more true when medium or heavy ducking are used in a block string, these can be grabbed even when done point blank although this is almost impossible to tell that close, and practically no dudley should be using anything but light ducking up close.
[]Ducking into followups are also anti-backdash tools, the punch follow up breaks armor, while the other can be Focus absorb and backdashed. They juggle so an incorrect guess can hurt.
[]Crosscounter can be mitigated by hit-confirming with cr.lk, cr.lp instead of cr.lp since it hits low first then mid, also it has a 3 frame startup, so meaty cr.lp on wakeup will stuff wakeup cross counter.
[]ex.tb (thunderbolt) tracks, but always hits in front (i.e. cannot cross-up). Regular non-ex.tb can cross up because they have fixed distances.
[]ssb can be grabbed on reaction, seemed easier if you stepped into it, ex was significantly harder to grab. Everything but light is punishable on block by crouching or standing jab.[/LIST][/details]
Ok so I went into training mode to find out more about how to punish guy and I want to share this with you guys and maybe soon we can have a good idea on how to play this MU.
GUY PUNISHES
[details=Spoiler][LIST]c.HK Punishes -10 on block according to Guy’s frame data (you can only use them if he does his sweep up close)
- lp DS
- Super
- Ultra1 (Reversal and activated with KKK)
- c.lp
- c.mp
- c.mk
- c.hk
- need to test EX Upper. If you do EX Upper on the Run slide it works because.
Best Punish w/o meter is c.mp HB (210 damage)
Best punish w/ Super is c.mp HP DS Super (466 damage)
Easiest Punish is c.lp, c.lk xx hp HB (162 damage)
[/LIST]
[LIST] F+mp Punishes -4 on block according to Guy’s frame data
- Untested but should be able to connect c.lp or s.lp
[/LIST]
[LIST] mp Shoulder Punishes -4 on block according to Guy’s frame data
- s.lp
[/LIST]
[LIST]hp Shoulder Punishes -6 on block according to Guy’s frame data
- lp DS
- s.lp
[/LIST]
[LIST]EX Shoulder Punishes -6 on block according to Guy’s frame data
-s.lp?
- lp DS?
[/LIST]
[LIST]lk Tatsu Punishes -18 on block according to Guy’s frame data (in the lk version Guy goes back quite a bit if you block it)
- Super
- Ultra1
- EX Upper
- hp HB
- c.mp EX Upper (corner only because of pushback)
[/LIST]
[LIST]mk Tatsu Punishes -16 on block according to Guy’s frame data (in this version guy lands right next to you)
- cl.hk, c.mp Ex Upper
- Super
- Ultra1
[/LIST]
[LIST]hk Tatsu Punishes -? on block according to Guy’s frame data
- this version does not hit a grounded Boxer. If you’re point blank Guy will land on the other side and you can auto-correct Ultra1, c.mp xx HB and maybe cl.hk, c.mp (forgot to test it). Need to test if you can land a jump in aswell.
[/LIST]
[LIST]EX Tatsu Punishes -29 on block according to Guy’s frame data
- Hold u/f after crouch blocking Guy’s EX bushin senpu kyaku (the spin kick) for a full jump in combo (Jav1ts)
- Super
- Ultra1
[/LIST]
[LIST]Run Neck Flip -6 on block according to Guy’s frame data (this is the overhead kick)
- lk Dash Upper
- lp DS
- You can make the OH kick whiff with TAP and hit guy on his recovery. TAP will also work on Run slide but he can Run stop to bait it.
[/LIST]
[LIST]Run Shadow Kick -10 on block according to Guy’s frame data
- Super (Hold K)
- Ultra1 (KKK activated and hold K)
- EX Upper
- lp/mp/hp/ex DS
- c.lp
- c.mp
- c.mk
- c.hk
[/LIST]
[LIST] EX Run Neck Flip -6 on block according to Guy’s frame data
- untested
[/LIST]
[LIST]EX Run Shadow Kick -9 on block according to Guy’s frame data
- Super (Hold K)
- Ultra1 (KKK activated and hold K)
- EX Upper
- lp/mp/hp/ex DS
- c.lp
- c.mp
- c.mk
- c.hk
- It’s hard to punish with TAP (making the slide whiff) because EX Run Slide has 14f of recovery and regular Run Slide has 22f.
[/LIST]
The shoulder punishes were tested using Shoulder at a sweep distance +/- and may differ according to distance.
[/details]
Matchup Notes:
- Cancel into shoulder is not a true blockstring and you can HB before the shoulder connects (not sure if it’s this way for every cancel so it needs confirmation).
- It’s really hard to link after an OH if he is crouching (both c.mp and c.lk work but timing is very hard) unless you absorve one hit with the ex version. In that case c.mp it’s not that hard and you can cancel into HB.
- You can beat Run Slide and Run OH kick with c.mp but not EX Runs because of the armor. Maybe we can cancel into HB but he can Run Stop to bait it. This needs more testing.
At first I was having problems dealing with the flip and elbow but then I started to AA with c.hp, HB and jump back mp/hp. All of them have pros and cons. c.hp can be beat if he delays the jump with the elbow drop. HB you have to do it really late because you risk going under and be punished. Jump back mp works great but does no damage and you have to instant press mp after the jump and you may get mp HB instead if you were crouching. jump back HP trades most of the time if Guy is right above your head but works great if you’re at a distance. Elbow drop can cross up and if he goes for this you can walk forward land on the other side and punish with clp clp clk HB or you can lp DS under him and punish aswell. One thing importante Guy hitbox is very weird so sometimes you do clp clp and clk whiffes at ranges it doesn’t on other chars. So reduce your hitconfirms into HB or use c.mp.
Dash punches get beat a lot by his 2 hit sweep but ex dash sweep and smash beats it.
If he neutral jump on your wake up delay the HB or you will go under.
Ex HB whiffes if Guy does is 2 hit sweep. So on wake up don’t use EX HB if he tends to do this nor dash straight/upper. If you ex dash punch is slide be ready to tech similar to Dhalsim.
To do:
- Add some videos aswell so ppl can see the different versions of Guys’ moves.
- Do more tests on how to punish/deal with EX Runs
- Do more tests on HK Tatsu
- Do more tests on EX Shoulder
- Do more tests on c.hk
- Do more tests on f+mp
- Reorganize the post to have best no ex/best 1 ex/best super/easy punishes
Javits already said punish guy ex tatsu with jump f combo, just a heads up on that one.
EX Tatsu Punishes -29 on block according to Guy’s frame data
- Hold u/f after crouch blocking Guy’s EX bushin senpu kyaku (the spin kick) for a full jump in combo (Jav1ts)
- Super
- Ultra1
I know. It’s already there.
Oh oops blind or something soz
Hp shoulder/elbow can’t be punished with super (as per frame data), lp.ds xx super yes, more damage anyway. That’s only if you’re punishing on block, whiff punishing is another beast altogether.
**edit, i’ll test, it could be something like Juri’s ex.pinwheel, where crouch blocking makes you recover earlier than you would if you blocked it high. I’ll test it briefly later, it’s thanksgiving over here, so it’ll be a while until i get access to a console again.
For post below ^^
But did you tested it 3nigmat1c? I tested it and unless I did something wrong it worked contrary to what the frame data says.
I tested it out, didn’t work, make sure you record him doing the elbow rush and then holding down back so he blocks as soon as he recovers from the move. If you still get it to work, make a vid so we can see the setup, since I tried it at different ranges and there was no difference, still couldn’t land super by itself.
Oh and if you’re going to punish with a jab, cr.lp whiffs, but st.lp will connect on block.
That’s what I did, or at least I think I did. I’ll try it again when I have the chance and amend my post if you’re right.
Ok you were right 3nigmat1c. I was holding down back for only a few seconds and then the Super/Ultra freeze will cover this few seconds and Guy wasn’t blocking anymore when the Super/Ultra connected.
I amended my post and add a few things. There’s still work to do so I will update my post in the next few days.
Can we get some MU info for claw?
I’ve got some quotes and stuff I collected (hell i’ve got them for close to all of the characters), but it’s a lot of stuff that I haven’t thoroughly tested, I’ve got Elf, Dudkins and the oldest man (gen) in the pipeline, i’ll jump to Vega next since I’m pretty familiar with the match and his moveset. In the meantime, what trouble are you having, maybe me or someone else can help.