its why I felt this thread is inappropriate for tech talk.
We approach a point in the debate where what takes prescience Technological ability or Fair sportsmanship?
The only real limits in Technology (far as controllers go) is technical skill/knowledge and creativity.
At some point tech needs to take a back seat to what is intended for the game and the spirit of good sportsmanship.
Because clever minds will always find ways to use technology to bend/break the rules in their favor (regardless of the competitive event).
In the name of competitive fairness; If a button combination is not with in the intended design of the game it should not be allowed, PERIOD.
Button bindings outside of those who need special hardware for those with limited accessibility (such as the physical disabled) should be banned.
It is not a arbitrarily drawn line, it is a line drawn to show what is acceptable with in the design of said game.
Up and down or Left and Right simultaneous inputs are allowed in DDR, and other music/ rhythm games but not in Fighting games.
I don’t think anyone in here is getting heated about this issue.
Just to be clear, I would personally exclude hitboxes (in addition to full schedules stick) for similar reasons mentioned in Aris’ review; things like being able to double/triple tap directions and use one hand for inputs and and buttons on just-frames (unless you’re desk lol).
I prefer 6 button arcade sticks (even though I bought my first stick in 09). Doesn’t mean I can’t question the reasoning behind the decision.
If what Gummo says about dpad POV is true (and I haven’t seen anyone say otherwise) then UL and UR on a stick aren’t technically isn’t really any different. With all due respect, what you deem to be intended for the game and in keeping with the spirit of good sportsmanship are purely subject notions…
When Capcom made SFIV, was the Hitbox even a seed of a thought in anyone’s mind? I don’t think so. Nor was any Hitbox/Stick hybrid with extra buttons with two functions bound to them. Therefore the game was not designed for that. The End.
The whole controversy over this stick really got me thinking about some things. One thing, if you think full schedule is the only one using a mod like this, you’re probably wrong. Realistically, if he just binded these inputs to his 3P and 3K buttons, no one would have noticed. Makes me wonder who else is doing something similar to this. We know there’s a mess of “pros” assigning select to a button for select plinking, but I think there are a few out there doing a little bit more as well.
Did some testing with diagonals in SSF4 and KoF13 on ps3. I made a little change in code in a custom usb controller. I made it so that if you press left (dpad left) then the next directional input that the controller would immediately send out is up (dpad up). Note its impossible to send multiple dpad directions at the exact same time since the controller can only send one hatswitch value at a time. I went into training mode with input display on and pressed left. All I ever got was a left and then up input. It never converted it into a diagonal upleft. I then made another change to the code by making it press up on the left analog stick instead of dpad. This would give me the diagonal upleft since the controller was able to send both a left and up direction at the same time.
It is interesting to notice that the game only converts directions into diagonals if the analog stick is involved. That’s the only way two directions that make a diagonal can be sent to the system at the same time. When it comes to the dpad though its the usb controller’s responsibility to turn the dpad inputs into diagonals. Which it could do diagonals with only 1:1 signal/button ratio.
I would say mapping a button to a diagonal should be legal under the current rules. The game recognizes diagonals on the dpad as individual inputs from the controller. Hitboxes are legal so its okay to map a direction to a button. Its also legal to map your select button somewhere else even though you can’t ingame. Remapping select shows precedent that its okay to do mods that gain an advantage that you can’t do ingame.
Well in the spirit of good sportsmanship and what is intended for the game I would say lets start banning remapping of select for SF4.
I can care less about people getting heated. This thread is about Full Schedule’s stick and how it impacts Tournament Rules and Game Ethics.
There nothing technologically related that haven’t been beaten to death. Well Maybe some of Gummo’s crazily creative technological loop holes.
My Issue is Tech Talk is not the place to debate about petty things such as rulings, ethics or even Full Schedule.
If the topic have nothing to do with technology and how it applies to gaming then the thread is off topic from this board and it should be closed. End of Story (that means this thread).
Now if someone want to focus on the technological side of the issues, how to define macros, button bindings, what should tournament staff, tournament organizers and modders should look out for,
Yes that would warrant it’s own thread, Not this bloody circus.
AGREED 145%
If you aren’t relocating select for purely the purpose of a dual mod, There no reason for it. Example: My select button on my TE (with a Toodles Kitty) is moved to where the Turbo button is
The original select button hole is used for a Netrik passthough
This shit of lets put select so I can Plink is cheap as hell, and I hope they fix this in Ultra.
Nice work. This is how the decision should be made (with evidence and precedent). If that means that the FGC needs to make a ruling on select/back linking then so be it. But arbitrarily drawing the line at directionals without going through the testing you just did is ridiculous.
Right. “A” cadrinal direction, as in one. Not two, which would be “directions”. A stick has four directional microswitches, a hit box has four directional microswitches, D-pads have four directional contact points.
They don’t really seem analogous. Every input device has a back button, every competitor has the ability to use back linking if they wanted to without making any modifications to their stick/pad/whatever. When you can go pull a madcatz stick off the shelf and re-wire the up/left button that comes standard to a face button, then you might have something. The potential advantage you gain from back linking with almost any character in SF4 is significantly less than what you get from having a TK button with marvel Viper anyway.
They all have four microswitches/contact-points because its mechanically and electronically easier to implement than eight. There is nothing stopping someone from building a stick that used eight microswitches or a hitbox with 8 microswitches. All the while still use only one switch/signal per direction. Also where would the analog sticks fall into place? It doesn’t follow your 4 switch argument.
Sure everyone would have the ability to use select linking without any modifications, but trying to hit the select button when its in the back of the stick is rather impractical. Move the select to the main buttons where its in easy reach makes it practical. So making something impractical into something practical is an advantage. Especially since you have to hardware mod it as its not a ingame feature. That’s why I’m saying it would be legal to map a diagonal elsewhere since its legal to map select elsewhere and make something more practical.
Analog thumb sticks are in its own category. It isn’t a button at all and it does not use switches or sensors.
Analog thumb stick is attached to two Potentiometers to provide X and Y axis info to the computer.
Would it be possible to wire up a stick such that a button could correspond the x and y handed out by an analogue stick? That would require something more sophisticated than re-running the wires right? A custom PCB or an advanced padhack?
Actually the R3 and L3 buttons are separate from the stick’s analog electronically. There is a small Tac switch nested under each Analog stick.
So when you push the thumb stick down you activate the L3 or R3 button.
You see here the Tac switch with one of the thumbsticks axis resting on top.
i think for the most part its just making sure you have the right resistors hooked up to where the analog is and some diodes. May have to uninstall where the analogs are. This would in short be similar to 360 padhacks involving removal of the trigger.
The problem with that is that you would still have one switch changing both the x and y pots. Thus it would be similar to current arguments about FS’s stick in the first place.
The problem is everyone too concern about Full Schedule and his modded stick to even work on the issues that needs to be addressed.
Which I going to repeat myself and say this thread has no place in tech talk.
After all Gummo went ahead to see what a PS3 accepts as input and whats the job of a controller in regards to sending input. Input wise, analog/pots have no problem, but usb controllers must interpret mutlidirections to be diagonals.
Getting more mechanical information and seeing what breaks and doesnt is kinda part of the reason for srktt anyways
But the approach that this thread is taking to get that information doesn’t fit with the spirit of TT in my eyes. Dark is doing it right with the other thread that he made. There has been some good information here but there is too much citing of “the incident”.
