Frame Trap 101

No, a positive frame advantage is when you recover faster than your opponent after a certain action. It doesn’t depend on what you do after. I think what they’re saying is that, after you’re slightly negative on hit, you can do the following:
Grab > blocking
SRK > early crouch tech (their crouch tech will come out before yours)
Blockstring right after > late crouch tech (they will block it but you will be on the offensive, you can also throw out a slower normal to try to hit them in the startup frames)

You can do apply this when you’re even or even positive on block, but they really have to think twice about pressing buttons when you have two bars after a HK Tatsu combo.

For a blocked air tatsus I don’t know the frames tbh, but for the ground ones:
LK: -2?
MK: 0
HK: -1
EX: +1

EDIT: if I’m wrong, someone please correct me because that’s the knowledge I’ve been relying on for quite a bit.

I think you’re missing the point.

Generally, you have so much frame advantage after a jump in that no matter what move you do next (whether they got hit or blocked it) it’s nearly always going to be a true block string (i.e. there was no space for them to do any sort of move and they were stuck in hit/block stun at all times). As far as I am aware, it’s very hard to calculate exact block stun values from jump ins because there are too many variables and most players are not going to try to poke out any move in between the jump in and the first grounded normal so it’s not really the right time to start trying to set up a frame trap. Plus, your method of using an EX air tatsu then a DP, then a FADC to make it safe is a very meter heavy frame trap at best.

So to sum up:

Wrong time to really be trying to set up the frame trap.

Very costly on meter for a very low pay off.

Hard to know the actual numbers involved due to working it from a jump in. This makes it hard to duplicate, hard to practice and hard to rely on.

Peace,

G.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk

Don’t frame traps only work if we assume the opponent is crouch teching in block strings?

Yeah. But it’s also one of the few ways you can actually open up your opponent in this game since we’re not using a character like Ibuki who can combo from her overhead.

i think the term “frame traps” is being thrown around too loosely these days.
there are frame traps and then there are counter-hit setups. personally, i use counter-hit setups a lot more because most frame traps are easily beaten by reversals.

one of kens frame traps is blocked cr.mp (+1 frame) into cr.lp (3 frame startup). it will stuff any of their normals but lose to reversals with invincibility start up frames such as srks, flash kicks, blanka balls, etc.

a counter-hit setup is cr.lk, cr.lp, walk back, cr.sweep to punish either their cr.tech or whiffed normal.

i think people have to learn to distinguish “frame traps” and “counter-hit setups” before really getting a grasp on it.
another example is cr.lk, cr.lp, pause, fp.srk, into full Ultra 1. many people call this a frame trap but imo its a counter hit setup.

if we talk only about opportunity to do a success frametrap, it’s clear that cl.lk f.dp is better than cl.lp f.dp because of a bigger gap, more chances for opponent to click a button.
ImagineVC why pause f.dp is counter-hit setup but not frametrap? That is the definition of counter-hit setup?

One of my favorite pressure strings on wakeup or something…
c.lk,c.lp,s.mp,f+mk,kara-f.srk

If the c.lk,c.lp hits, then c.mk>tatsu or f.dp.
If the s.mp counter-hits, you should have enough time to hit confirm a sweep
if the f+mk counter-hits (there’s a 7 frame gap so it happens a lot) then your shoryu should hit. If you have fast reactions then you can try not doing a kara to shave off a frame to make the link easier.
If they backdash after the f+mk then the kara-shoryu should hit them
If you get a counter-hit on the shoryu, then you get a full ultra if you have meter.

ps. frame traps and counter-hit setups are the same thing. Walking back and punishing whiffed normals is called walking back and punishing whiffed normals

I think you’re over thinking it VC.

I purposefully tried to keep the initial post as clear and concise as possible, hoping that this wouldn’t get too bogged down in street fighter jargon as a lot of the words that get banded about, basically mean the same thing.

For me, a counterhit set-up is just a frame trap that leads to a specific outcome when it lands as a counterhit.

For example:

Imagine this combo from SSF4 (not AE).
cr.lk, cr.lp, cr.lp, far.st.mp, cr.hk

This is a frame trap because we are leaving a 5 frame window in between the cr.lp (+2 on block) and the far.st.mp (7 frame start up).
But if we hit the far.st.mp and score a counterhit, it combos into the cr.hk (8 frame start up).

So you could call this a counterhit set up.

If you were to do the exact same string in AE, you wouldn’t need to land the far.st.mp as a counterhit to score the cr.hk, as it has only 7 frame start up now. So you could argue that this is no longer a counterhit set up but just a regular frame trap technique leading to a hard knockdown.

For me frame traps and counterhit set ups are, in essence, the exact same thing, but a counterhit set up implies that you need to score the counterhit for the remaining components of the block string to become viable.

Hope this makes sense,

Peace,

G.

Alright, i think i understand what your getting at now, thanks for the help

I’m curious to why this link doesn’t work anymore. Anyone know if it’s still around?

anyway, this a such a great thread, so hepful

i see what youre getting at G77 but i call that a counterhit combo not a counterhit setup. over here in canada (calgary at least), we distinguish frame traps and counter hit setups. i just suck at explaining things. i probably just confused everybody so just ignore me :stuck_out_tongue:

I could have used a variety of examples to make my point:

Step kick (blocked), fierce DP (CH) FADC full U1.
cr.lk, cr.lp, kara fierce DP (CH) FADC full U1.
HK tatsu combo ender, fierce DP (CH) FADC full U1.
etc…

They’re all forms of frame traps (mainly utilising invincible moves to create frame traps from situations where you are at a negative frame advantage) but the concept and the execution is the same. It’s only the utility that is different.

As long as we agree that the concepts are the same, there’s no need to quibble over the finer points…

Peace,

G.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk

Good shit with the thread, simple and straight to the point.

The guide was made I think before the site got revamped, so I think the article got lost in translation.

If anyone knows how to access it please share. Thanks.

Awesome writeup and discussion everyone. Also hoping to see the Joon guide just for more detail. After falling in love with kara shoryuken, I am anxious to try out some of these setups. Frame trapping is essential for Ken players and I’m excited by a lot of the traps using normals (not as risky). If we say, cr.lk, cr.lp, st.mp, will we beat out their cr.lk? In this case should we be doing st.mp -> hado to make it a semi-safe block string if it doesn’t catch anything? Will need to take a look at more frame data and test out in lab.

Unfortunately, Ken’s far.st.mp is not special cancellable. Your best bet is to just follow it up with a raw sweep (works more often than you might think), or just walk backwards/forwards and continue your pressure just by utilising the +4 your getting from the blocked far.st.mp

Peace,

G.

u can kara shoryuken after a far st. MP and its hit confirmable. If he blocks throw a crouching HK

from bananakens lab:

Hmm, st.mp, do you mean close standing medim punch or far standing medium punch? I’ve seen cr.lk, cr.lp, fs.mp used as a frame trap, but it requires good spacing I believe because otherwise you’re too close and get close standing medium punch… which I’m not sure if it’s good a frame trapping tool, never really used it much, have to try it out. I’m thinking using target combo (cl.mp xx cl.hp) as the frame trap instead of just cl.mp on its own, but not sure the range works… but yeah, you would do cl.mp xx hado (assuming it’s a true block string) cos cl.mp is ass on hit and even worse on block. With far standing medium punch on hit, I go for sweep usually, kara srk, super if I have it, or cr.mk xx ex tatsu. On block, good options are sweep, kara srk (if I have 2 bars to keep it safe) or kara throw… it all depends on the conditioning/mixup you’re going for.

I’m trying to pick up Ken, so i’m trying to learn basic frame traps with him. But reading this confused me, maybe its because of his normal’s, or just how everyone generally plays with him. Why would frame traps after a jump in be a bad idea?

After playing with Cody for a while now, I have come to realize its probably one of the best times to perform one. People are usually tempted to throw, or crouch tech, or just mash jabs after a jump in. If they are grabbing after a jump in more than often i’ll ex bingo them, if they crouch tech I can do the same, or try to counter hit them with a late fierce. If their scared because of counter hit setups, its basically a free grab. I don’t know how many times my opponent has blocked my jump in, then I paused, s.Hp counter hit, then ultra 2. It all boils down to you conditioning you opponent and knowing the match up.

For example, against Boxer, Bison, and maybe Chun its not a good idea to try any frame traps because of their fast c.lk’s and jabs, well at least for Cody. But against most of the cast I find it extremely important. Obviously, I do generally get more counter hits with me just performing little block strings, pausing, then starting again, but I perform the most damaging, stun damage, and game changing frame traps after meaty jump ins.

Why would frame traps after a jump in be a bad idea for Ken?

U could frame trap after jumping in with j.lk, it all depends on when u press the lk I really have no great timing for it but just go for a regular block string after like cr.lk or cr.lp. but on other jump ins its all about delaying ur inputs there is no set data on it. But I prob wouldn’t waste meter on it unless iam just not giving a fuuu

Counter-hit setups and frame traps aren’t really the same thing (eg. “all kittens are cats but all cats aren’t necessarily kittens”). The idea of Frame Traps mainly comes from games like Tekken and Soul Calibur. SFIV is basically the only game where people consider counter-hit setups and frame traps to be the same thing.

A frame trap is a sequence of 2 moves separated by a gap that is smaller than the opponent’s fastest normal move that can hit at that distance. eg. Blanka’s lp electricity into sweep is a frame trap because even though 3f and 4f moves would theoretically beat the sweep, they don’t have enough range so the opponent is forced to use something like cr.hk, which will lose to Blanka’s sweep.

If you have a sequence of moves with a 3f gap in between them, and your opponent has a 3f jab, it’s not really a true frame trap. However, 3f gaps are legit vs chars whose main crouch teching options result in 4f normals (eg. shotos). And because it’s such a common thing to do, people just call them frame traps for the sake of brevity.

“Frame” also just refers to the startup, not the invincibility or other stuff like that. So doing stuff like DP after a blocked move is not a frame trap. Using Rose’s st.mk in strings to blow up throws is not a frame trap. Neither is using Viper’s lk Burn Kick. They rely more on things like invincibility frames than startup.

Another class of setup is where you rely on the property of a moves’ hitboxes to beat the opponent’s options. eg. If you have a move that has a hurtbox situated relatively far behind it’s hitbox, you can use it in certain situations to beat your opponent’s options even if they use moves that startup faster. Note that this does not score a counter-hit, and it’s not a frame trap.

There’s no real harm in calling certain things frame traps even though they aren’t. Language evolves over time and people just learn to accept it eg. saying “vortex” instead of 3+ way Okizeme, or how the meaning of “abare” changes between 2D and 3D games. You do lose some expressiveness though. “Frame trap” implies something about the nature of the sequence of moves. There’s nothing inherent about manually delaying two moves in order to bait something, because the length of the delay is entirely up to the player. On the other hand if someone tells you X followed by Y against a certain character is a frame trap, then technically it means beat any normal (with enough range to hit) that the opponent tries to do. This allows you to infer the frame data. Still, it’s no real biggie.

Re: Delayed crouch tech
"Late crouch tech" is actually option select tech, from a crouching position. Originally OS Tech referred to delaying a tech until the 8 or 9th frame so that you’re able to block and tech (that’s essentially the OS). This is the original delayed crouch tech guide (Japanese, with video examples and frame diagrams):
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http://color-k32.sblo.jp/article/34419943.html

He also gives examples of counter-hit setups to beat delayed crouch tech, and OS options for the defender.

There are of course other forms of OS Tech eg. f, d, df + lk + lp: Techs throws, or performs a DP - useful after empty jumps. Delayed standing tech will block true frame traps, tech throws, and throw opponents out of counter-hit setups (if they’re in range). It loses to step back, cr.mk/hk.

One thing that’s worth investigating IMO is creating frame traps off meaty situations. Even if a series of moves isn’t a “true” frame trap, you can turn it into one by landing the first move meaty on the opponent’s wakeup. So in theory: Ken’s st.mk has 5 active frames, and is -2 on block. If you can find a setup that will cause it to hit on the last active frame, you can basically turn it into a +2 on block move. Follow up with cr.mk for a true frame trap (doubles as a combo on hit). It’s like scoring a max range f.mk, but it leaves you closer to the opponent which makes them more likely to press buttons. I guess most Ken players already know about this one though.