lessee…
you picked up the assist trophy, you picked up the hammer which you still have to hit them with, you had to throw the bumper and banana. While you may argue the point of the assist trophy being fight for you, the other 3 still requires something much more. Hell, aside from the assist trophies and pokeballs, nothing else fights “for you”.
ok fine if you really want me to, I’ll admit that when you pick up an item, you have to throw it so that it can fight for you. or that while it attacks for you, you may have to run around.
feel better now that you won? god i dont think ive ever seen a mute point until now. all those other times were nothing in comparison.
You’re trying to argue that items are instant-win factors of the game. They aren’t. Most of the items in the game have a risk of use, disadvantages upon its use along side its advantages, and most importantly, a defense. Please explain to me how a homerun bat, star rod, Mr. Saturn, super scope, fire flower, hammer, motion sensor, bunny hood, metal box, lip’s stick, banana, gooey bomb, pitfall, smart bomb, smoke bomb, and unira give you rewards with no risk or defense.
I really want to know what these risks are. There are very few times in Smash where I have thought “I really don’t want to go pick up that item.” Items will almost always give you an advantage, due to the simple fact that you can throw them. The only real disadvantage I can think of is that if you throw the item, there is a chance your opponent will catch it and now have the advantage in their hands.
are you kidding me?
I won without hitting my opponent using an assist trophy. in this tourney.
if winning, without hitting my opponent, and only using an item, isn’t winning thanks to items, then what is?
also someone else did it for me.
and finally the only reason running in circles and abusing items worked was because levels like summit are broken already. I dont expect it to work on battlefield 100% of the time. you have to have stage control if you want to abuse items. on levels that are broken, where you can run away all day, you have stage control without fighting. so running in circles and using items to fight for you works just fine.
^^I think it’s clear to everyone that at the very least some assist trophies should be banned because they’re nearly free kills or at the very least are guaranteed to do a lot of damage and make you an easy target while getting hit.
Andross, little mac, waluigi, the kid who shoots red missiles, and the robot that shoots red and green bullets should all be banned from tourney play IMO.
alright. I can’t really say how big of a factor each risk/defense is of every item at this point simply 'cause of how early we are in the game, but from my current experience…
Beam Sword, Star Rod, Fan, Homerun Bat, Lip’s Stick - the wielders. With this in hand, you get a special property, different range a, f-tilt, f-smash, as well as a tossable projectile(Star Rod can shoot stars with tilts/smashes as well). This also means you lose access to your normal a, your tilt a, your f-smash and grab. Also, these items, Fan being the exception, tend to have slower actions and greater recovery than most of your normal attacks.
Ray Gun, Cracker Launcher, Super Scope, Fire Flower - the guns. These items give you a projectile for your basic a, f-tilt, f-smash, as well as being a functional tossed projectile. Like the wielders, you lose access to your normal a, f-tilt, f-smash, and grab. With the change in Brawl’s c-stick, you gain back c-sticking your arials, tilts, and smashes, with the exception of the f/b arials and f-tilt/smash, hanging onto the item while doing the attack. The cracker launcher is the worst in the risk department simply due to how slow it aims and how easy it is to roll behind someone once grounded.
Metal Box, Bunny Hood, Screw Attack, Franklin Badge, Super/Poison Mushroom, Lightning, Timer, Starman, Spicy Curry, Heart Container, Maxim Tomato, Food, Hammer, Golden Hammer, Warp Star, Assist Trophy - the auto-use items. These items are activated either by touch or by pickup/attack, and used automatically. Some of these items can be removed by being hit, where they can drop to be picked up by your opponent, or disappear altogether. These have such varying attributes that I’ll break them down a bit more.
Metal Box - You’re much more resistant to lighter attacks, and at lower percentages, strong attacks as well. At the cost of being much heavier and a faster faller. This means that while you can soak up the attacks and punish, you also eat multi-hit attacks much more (Peach/Pikachu’s down-smash are the notorious ones). You also have a much more difficult time returning to the stage if off due to the increased fast-fall.
Bunny Hood - Your movement speed is greatly increased. This includes run/walk, jumps and falls. The rewards here are really dependent on your opponent. If you can keep your opponent at a great distance vertically or off the stage, catching them with attacks that’d normally not land are greatly beneficial. Of course, the reward isn’t much when this situation isn’t applicable. Also, the biggest risk is nearing the end of of the hood’s life, where you lose it while low off the stage and can no longer jump to compensate for that fast fall.
Screw Attack - Gives your jump a multi-hit damaging box that only lets go of your opponent when it stops. The damage isn’t much, but makes up for it by giving you a free arial for your trouble of jumping. Overall, doesn’t give much of a benefit aside of giving you some breathing room for its duration, though some characters can use it to land some of their normally difficult powerful moves (Jigglypuff’s Rest is notorious). Not much risk involved on this item, aside of the fact the item can be knocked off and picked up by your opponent to return the favor, and seems to fall off quite easily.
Franklin Badge - Gives you an auto-reflect for projectiles. As with the Screw Attack, not much risk involved here, aside from the same problem of losing it and having your opponent pick it up. Benefits vary depending on the opponent, from absolutely useless to convenient defense for a moment.
Super/Poison Mushroom - Makes you double/half in size for a duration. Overall, this item is greatly toned down from Melee. Being bigger doesn’t do much to improve the knockback of attacks, and being small doesn’t kill you at 20% anymore (not even 90%). Benefits show much greater in combination with other items. Risk is the problem of getting a poison over a super. Super also has a similar risk as Metal Box, in that you will eat a lot more multi-hit attacks without being able to escape, probably for the duration of being super.
Lightning - Activates on touch, should turn all opponents small. Can turn user small as well or instead.
Timer - Activates on pickup/attack, should half the speed of your opponents. Can affect user as well or instead.
Starman - Activates on touch. Grants total invincibility for a duration. Little risk other than the chase due to it moving, and the rewards tend to dumb down to your opponent running away for its duration. Debateably overpowered, unfounded truth in this fact.
Spicy Curry - Activates on pickup - Causes a 90 degree arc in the direction your character is facing, of fireballs that cause damage and stun. Character can otherwise act fully. Not too much risk other than dealing with reflectors and only real defense is to run away for its duration or attempt a strong attack with auto-guard/invincibility to it to knock 'em around. Surprisingly more difficult to avoid than a character under Starman. Debateably overpowered, unfounded truth in this fact.
Heart Container, Maxim Tomato, Food - The healers. Heals 100%/50%/3-5% damage upon pickup. Damage healing process cannot be interrupted once item is collected. No risk other than the battle over the item, reward dependent on the item. Food debateably overpowered when combined with containers, as well as hearts and maxims. Still unfounded truth in this fact.
Hammer/Golden Hammer - Auto-used on pickup. Hammer denies access to any other abilities other than jump. Golden Hammer allows hover but otherwise the same. Hammer can be blocked, dodged, grabbed out of, smacked out of, countered, and can also be a useless item by chance. Hammer heads that fall off can be thrown at the now prone character. Due to no access to other uses, can easily die by being thrown/hit off stage.
Warp Star - Upon pickup, character flies off stage and comes back down, explosively. Opponents can be hit both on the way down and from the landing. After, character is left in the air. Character can move left and right to a degree. This item has changed considerably in Melee, both in how far you can move left and right and the time it takes to come crashing down. Risk is mostly losing positional advantage upon and during its use.
Assit Trophy - used upon pickup and standing for a moment to activate. Numerous options can come from the item, some greatly beneficial, some pointless, some uncontrollable and potentially volatile towards the user. Item can be knocked from the character’s grasp from the point of pickup to the point of activation. Depending on its outcome, item’s risks can be non-existent to worrisome. Typically causes an additional facet of stage control, though some ATs can really do some damage if the opponent cannot avoid it.
Containers, Mr. Saturn, Pokeballs, Banana, Blast Box, Bumper, Deku Nut, Bob-omb, Smart Bomb, Gooey Bomb, Hothead, Pitfall, Smoke Ball, Spring, Unira - Chuckers. These items are used purely for throwing. Some items have other effects after, some can be activated by contact. With the exception of below, these items overall don’t provide much reward other than a projectile. The risks are, with exception of below, just if opponent catches/reflects the item, as well as not being able to use your a moves and grab 'til you have release the item.
Pokeballs - after thrown, random Pokemon is released. Effect depends on Pokemon and can range from useless to powerful to volatile towards user as much as opponent. With the exception of Latios/Latias, the only powerful Pokemon cover a radius around them of effect, so avoidance can be fairly easy. Latios/Latias covers the entire screen and may be difficult to dodge for its duration. Risks are only the fear of an opponent catching/reflecting if thrown at them, and otherwise the fear of a indiscriminate Pokemon outcome.
Bob-omb, Smart Bomb, Gooey Bomb, Deku Nut - these activate on attack as well as when thrown. Bob-omb will activate on its own and walk a short distance if left unused. Gooey Bomb can be returned before detonation, and Deku Nut has a significantly wide range can hit the user if used to closely to the opponent.
Spring, Bumper - Stays out after thrown, causing additional pushing/bouncing for the duration of its existence. Bumper seems to do a lot more knockback when thrown rather than when set. Risk involves having to avoid the item after it is set.
Soccer Ball - Activated on contact. Power is dependent on what had made contact with it. Tends to aim at an opponent if a character specifically attacks it. Only risk is that one character cannot control it, as it cannot be picked up and used, and the item deactivates upon hitting the end of its movement, free to be hit again.
Dragoon - this 3 part item allows the user to aim and fire themselves for a KO. Risk only really shows to be the fact you need all 3 pieces. Defensively, opponent has a wide array of options to not be hit, while the character has a limited to to aim and fire. After, character falls from top of screen. Pikachu can really abuse this by Thundering a Dragoon miss for an easy kill. Otherwise it’s just losing positional advantage. Debateably overpowered, unfounded truth in this.
Smash Ball - collected by damaging, activated manually once collected. With almost no exception, user is temporarily invulnerable and performs an action which may or may not KO their opponent, or otherwise changes into a form for a limited time. Effects vary by character, and the only risk seems to be the battle over it. Can be knocked out of you before use. Defensive options seem to be viable in the same vein as the Dragoon, though some may be harder for some characters to avoid than others. Debateably overpowered, unfounded truth in this.
All in all, I see a few items that can be debated over, but otherwise, I see a defense and/or a risk for every item, however slim or difficult. Until the debate over those items that can be theoretically overpowered comes to a close, I can’t see a reason to remove a thing.
So what you’re saying is that you got that assist trophy 3 times to win the match? Or just that you won a round that way. It’s a big difference.
Also, running circles is fine when your opponent actually chases, but who’s to say your opponent needs to? If they stay still and just keep you from running, they now have control.
I think your percentages on your mushrooms is incorrect. You can easily be killed at low percentages while small. (Say, like 40-60 percent. The move has to be a decent one, of course.) Also, there is no risk in getting the item. The super mushroom is brighter than the poison one.
I agree. There is a way to tell. It’s not as easy to tell in the heat of battle, however. Not to mention that some stages lighting make it even more difficult to tell. Also, it’s still a far cry from Melee’s 30% KOs from Peach’s down smash.
what I’m saying is I hit my opponent a total of 0 times and I picked up a total of 1 assist trophy that killed my opponent a total of 2 times.
god damn it cant get any more simple than that. maybe next I should make a sound byte explaining it VEEERRRRYYYY SLOOOOOWWWLYYYY. would that work?
and who is to say you wouldn’t observe this, stop yourself, and control as much area on the stage as your opponent without doing anything but standing still? do you SERIOUSLY believe this accurately gauges skill? standing still waiting on items?
What did your opponent do to allow you to even get said item? Did it spawn in your hand or immediately next to you without forethought at the beginning of the match? Was the reaction truly unavoidable or did your opponent just fail to avoid it? There’s more to the game that just the one item spawn, the events leading up to it and the aftermath have just as much impact as the only random aspect of the item’s spawn - it’s location. Once it’s there, players try to adapt to the situation and either do or don’t.
Also, do you understand the concept of stage control? I can go in a position to keep you on a select position without ever actually approaching, if you’re not willing to confront. The second you confront, you’ve changed your strategy and are no longer “running away for items”. Now your opponent, who has been controlling the stage, has to actually fight for it. Until you actually do something about it, there’s no reason to say they don’t control the stage.
So when’s the next tourney? If nasir doesn’t want to hold it, Somnus and I will.
…seriously.
im also willing to run these, fyi.