Do you realise that if the game followed your suggestions everyone could get to the position where mixups can occur just by flipping a coin after pressing a light? That doesn’t reward better neutral at all, that’s really just one good guess or a random jump in and then you’re in vortex hell forever. Any character without a fireball and an invincible reversal would be simply annihilated because he can’t create safe jump/walk in setups and he can’t escape the 50/50 loop.
The fact that the characters don’t have free mixups and tick throws all the time right now actually rewards the better player, either because he was able to condition the opponent not to stop your fake mixups or because he knew where he could stick out a normal to stop the pressure. Giving automatic mixups to every character will only reward randomness.
Older games had a lot of broken stuff - including unescapable tick throw loops - and they shouldn’t be taken as a model to follow in every point.
Their lack of execution is certainly a requirement of the special moves most of them become; something which needs to be done in the moment. Even the mobility V-skills make more sense in being one button press away than being that of a quarter or half circle. It’s not their strength so much that bothers me, but of their charisma in design and their overly situational utility, which for a few of the characters, is very bland. While I don’t think every character should be built around their V-skill, I think making them enhance the character is something to hope for in every single one. I just feel like diversifying character playstyles should be a priority, as well as improving their kits.
I think outside of Cammy, Ibuki and maybe Mika (potentially FANG if his poison doesn’t get better) I don’t think I would replace any V-skill, but I do think I would slightly buff most of them. Cammy, because it’s shameless and lazy to take an existing move and port it to a V-skill. Ibuki, because while good, and even good at building meter (which is rare (which is a problem)) is not creative to the character, nor is it filling a hole in her kit, especially if her normals improve at all in balance updates. Mika because… it has seen literally zero use, it’s a taunt, a really bad and slow taunt – concept is okay, but it’s just not good.
My main issue is mostly the V-system as a whole seeming not very intuitive in how it’s built. Most V-skills don’t even gain you much meter, and some only gain it by using a “bad” part of the V-skill (see Ken’s step kick). Playing well will result in you ALWAYS achieving V-trigger second, or never at all. Meter gained by playing well often sees no use, and as it doesn’t carry over, is a wasted resource. V-meter needs to be acquired in a more dynamic way, be it through increased ways of building it, or by the game adding more V-systems to utilize said meter or gain it. Everyone can view it their own way, but for me, seeing a V-bar that I can’t use if I’m correctly playing is… kind of just a tease. Subjective, but I consider it bad design.
Important to note that I like character diversity, and don’t want everyone to have equal opportunities to build and utilize gauge or what have you, however, I do think the avenue should exist for everyone. Currently, it does not.
While I don’t agree with Dime’s idea of making all throws lead into the same concept, I do want to stress that I don’t think meaty or throw is a 50/50. This was more true in older titles because of crouch teching, but even here, delayed tech and such still cover most offensive options except waiting and shimmy. So that isn’t really a 50/50 at all, nor is it a vortex. A vortex is a situation where you are put into a situation where the outcome is near impossible to figure out without ridiculous knowledge (like 1 pixel difference kind of knowledge). Mika’s pressure is a modest vortex, because there is little that can be done to cover multiple options because command grabs cannot be teched. Meaty or regular throw however is much easier to stop, to the point where I would say your available options make it no where near a 50/50 situation. SFV does limit that more than most games, but it’s not 50/50.
Pressure and advantage does not a vortex make. And in a way, I am with Dime in that consistent meaty options make for a more dynamic game. If you succeeded in a knockdown, you should be rewarded for it some capacity. SFV tries very hard to reset to neutral in every situation, and it’s this uncertainty and the difficulty of landing meaties that make people do things like wake-up jab, because they KNOW that the opponent only has one option “Do dash up meaty or throw” any other option is stopped by wake-up jab. The reason people don’t always go for these meaties is because it’s predictable and easy to defend, and no meaty in this game due to the severely low active frames, actually leaves you with a hefty advantage to make full use of. It’s most always a non-true meaty, and often puts you in the same situation a normal blocked attack would have. Honestly most “meaty” setups in this game aren’t meaties, they’re frame-traps on someone’s wake-up. You’re not actually hitting with later active frames in a lot of instances.
I don’t want to see every character have the same thing. I do however, think that knockdown advantage should be increased and active frames increased, so this silly counter-hit jab play can be lessened to a degree. My general philosophy is that successful offense should be rewarded with more, to an extent. Sweeps are a good example, if I land a sweep, I should be able to dash in and be at advantage. Whether that sweep was landing at point blank or max distance should determine how I might go about using that advantage. A meaty though, be it a max range cr.MK or a meaty overhead or something, should mostly be guaranteed.
It’s really all about ranges. Just because you got knocked down and they can meaty you, doesn’t mean they can hit you with their best meaty. This is why getting sent to the corner is scary in EVERY game, because suddenly every knockdown leads to a full on meaty, which can lead to heavy advantage. However, some characters, even in the corner, can get knockdowns on the opponent and get sent to a situation where they get limited in their meaty options. That’s a problem.
Unfortunately it’s kinda like you don’t understand what you are saying.
“Getting in” isn’t free. Nor is it random. That’s just the bad talking. Don’t be bad.
Equating this to oldschool throw loops really shows you don’t know what you are talking about, or you just haven’t put much thought into it. Let me break it down:
Oldschool throws, like in ST:
Unbreakable, but can be softened.
Can’t be jumped out of because of the unthrowable os so that if you do jump you just get hit by a standing fierce or roundhouse and put in the same situation again.
Do much more damage than newschool throws.
Activate in ONE frame.
Have huge range.
Newschool throws:
Do much less damage
Activate in 5 frames for sf5
Have much less range
CAN BE BROKEN
Can be jumped out of
Can be backdashed out of
They really aren’t the same move at all. So equating them under the banner of oldschool is just not a good example. You have MULTIPLE ways to defend against them in the newschool. Not literally “one”: (in ST the only defense to throws was to do an invincible reversal when cornered, and grabs like rog or SIM couldn’t be broken at all, could be shortened but your position was the same no matter what.
Now let’s look at your assertion that someone could just get “a random jumpin” really man? Random jumpin? There is no such thing. They make you block a jumpin its YOUR FAULT. It’s like dropping a combo except you dropped an AA.
The problem is that in sf4 lots of people got used to the easy mode defense of just blocking the smart jumpins and then crouchteching out. That has made its way into 5 via delay teching though less so, with people blocking the non obvious jumps instead of AAing like they should. It’s bad fundamentals that have been allowed to creep into the everyday players gameplay. It’s bad. Very bad. There is no excuse for allowing people to get blocked jumpins on you from neutral EVER.
If you actually think that getting “random” jumpins against people is “free” feel free to try that shit out against daigo or any of the top tournament placers. You will quickly find out that it is anything but free and even the sneakiest jumpins will get Anti aired more often than not.
BECAUSE THEY ARE GOOD PLAYERS WITH GOOD FUNDAMENTALS.
So no, I can’t agree with your premise that tick throws are free or any of that nonsense. Cause I know even in my games I try my best to keep players from getting in, while trying my best to get in. I’m not free to tick throws at all unless I’m playing someone remarkably better than me.
And finally, I already said that if the “loopability” of the throws was really that much of a course for concern, then to just take the loopability away and make throws cause more damage on the whole. That’s probably the better overall solution, though if every characters throw reset back to neutral, I would want throws universally to do around 150 damage along with not having to move forward after a light tick.
Regional filters need to be added to match making. I’m sick and tired of getting stuck and paired with Brazillians, Spanish, French, or whoever the hell online when I filter 4-5 bar matches in Ranked/Casual.
Didn’t want to mention it because this seems to be purely gameplay-related feedback but then again I feel like those muddy Halloween costumes actually do impact the gameplay. Alex and Ryu are just so much harder to fight when they’re using these costumes because everything they do gets swallowed by a wall of blackness. Plus they also have rather distracting accessories flapping around like crazy (hair, wings). Not to mention they’re ugly as f*ck but that I could live with.
It’s probably not going to happen as Capcom wants to sell costumes but I’m pro for an on/off toggle as well.
Personally i like aesthetic shit, and i’m even praying to get Color Edit
BUT
I’m also absolutely in favor to let players have option to toggle off any DLC (or if happen, Color Edit) stuff and play the game in it’s standard version
walk forward and jump in right when the boom is gonna hit
You have no DP? Too bad, you’re gonna eat it all and goodbye to your game. Your example of Daigo is of course very convenient because he plays a character that has BOTH a fireball AND a DP, but what if he played Vega or Gief? Is he supposed to do air throws all the time? Do you realise how bland the AA game would become?
You literally need one knockdown to enter the vortex through your system. You walk forward, they sweep/whiff punish/counter-hit once and you’re basically dead. The only skill required is to get that first hit, which doesn’t require Daigo level of footsies no matter how you put it.
You still have that idea that “good” players should be rewarded by basically granting them a free victory on one good guess, which to me is still totally dumb. This is no MvC nor MKX, we don’t need true 50/50s all day long and good players dominate by CONTINUOUSLY being able to win footsies and conditioning the opponent to don’t press buttons through the gaps in your strings.
In any case, this is not the thread for speculating on how to change the game mechanics so to make it closer to ST or Skullgirls, so I think it is better to close the discussion here.
Better to close the discussion after you’ve made your point? Dictator in ST has terrible AA. Still a mistake to block jumpins with him. Urien has wonky hard to use AA’s. Still a mistake to block jumpins. Guile in ST can L boom and follow it in and get a free jump into a tick throw that you really can’t stop without a reversal after having blocked the boom and can also tick throw off of boom into walk up and throw behind it.
These things don’t break these characters. You have to be able to play around the strengths and weaknesses of your character. BAD AA? Use a different character or learn to be really on point with non traditional AA like air to air or dash backwards or dash forwards etc.
You do realise that v skill boom has the most startup of any projectile in the game besides uriens fully charged fireballs right? You use something with that much startup as your example?
Chun can slide under it as it’s coming. Ryu can ex for 2 hits or use his super! Other characters can use projectile invincible attacks etc etc etc.
And if a character TRULY has issues with that, then it’s their onus to figure it out.
So no one’s asking for an option to turn off negative edge? It doesn’t really matter for some characters but getting Medium Fuhajin instead of Heavy when cancelling from a cr.MK with Juri is plain suicide and happens to me often enough to be a nuisance.
Blocking jump ins should be no problem in this game cause mix ups/traps are hardly existent.
The push back on block strings are insanely in the blockers favor anyway.
Yeah, I know the workarounds (just quickly tap MK, hold MK) but both require some adaption from myself and I’m just a lazy guy. I think other games offer an option to toggle it off so it can’t be that hard to implement. I’d just like to have it even though it’s kinda unlikely at this point.
SF has never traditionally had the option to do it so outside of just some random occurrence, don’t see it happening. I’ve heard people say that it also messes with fundamental parts of SF to try and toggle with the negative edge.
So you saying that you have a better grasp of the game at high levels than Tokido?
Reducing the delay any further will certainly favor certain characters, especially those that would get more out of being able to react to stuff much more easily (Tokido specifically singled out the more defensive characters). On the flip side, characters who rely more on making their opponents guess would be hurt by the reduction.
Only NRS games have this, and this is mostly because Midway’s games traditionally didn’t have negative edge. Majority of other fighting games have it.
No, Lag makes one hesitate, causes an offensive player to be defensive.
Reducing such would only help stop this.
Tostito’s or whoever doesn’t change this fact.