I don’t think I’d want top players to help design games because I don’t want to keep playing ST and MvC2 for the rest of my life

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If it’s done well, then we would predict with relative certainty that more people will care, based on past examples and psychological research. That is the point of doing it, not to explain shit to people who won’t play.

edit: I thought I should mention that those things aren’t proof of anything. I don’t think it would be prudent to just start implementing things without doing our own experiments (in this case basically playtesting), and I don’t necessarily agree that what the OP describes are “design flaws.”

Blazblue’s animation is choppy, and lacks detail. The only thing it has going for it is the sheer size of the sprites. And the game’s mechanics are WAAAAAY watered down compared to other games. I’m not arguing that a tutorial, and a good game are mutually exclusive, I’m just saying that an in-depth tutorial mode requires resources, and many developers don’t prioritize them, due to the healthy arcade scene in Japan creating the illusion that there rest of the world is also free of scrubs.

How many people actually want to read a manual for their new shiny trendy gadget?

Yeah I thought so.

(I love reading manuals by the way.)

The animation looks choppy due to the fact it’s all traditional 2d, hand-drawn, not 3d models. I still don’t buy the mechanics argument, the game has a lot of complex mechanics inherited from guilty gear, as well as some newer mechanics that have been added to it…

Character specific drives
Barrier
A deeper counter system with fatal counters/perfect guard
Guard primers
The tension mechanic from GG
Bursts (like crash in TvC, implemented less abusively)
Air dash (unlike SF)
The combo chains in the game are far far longer than say SF as well

It may not be a six button fighter but it’s in no way shallow… I really don’t buy that someone has played it competitively if they’re arguing it has watered down mechanics.

I think the main problem with the fighting game community is the needless, never ending crave to constantly jump to the “latest” game. Even when I joined scene, before 2k6, this has been the case. It doesn’t matter how bad the game is, if its new it will get play and I think that has to stop. Japan does this with their games sometimes. If the new version is worse than the older one, they don’t play the latest as the tournament standard.

Another problem with fighters is how much love sf4 gets. When a game that is designed to be simple gets RIDICULOUS support, it tells the developers that this is what the scene wants. When in fact, its the communities nature to simply jump to the next game. Now all of those terrible elements found in sf4 are now plaguing other games, mainly the use of some type of ridiculous comeback mechanic which has been in the 4 latest Capcom fighteres, tvc, sf4, mvc3 and sfxt. The sponsorships, the prize pools, the doo doo hype for a terrible game just sends the wrong message to the developers and people wonder why we keep receiving bad games. Its because the community supports the latest game regardless if its a POS

now there is also a fundamental questions here. Is it fair to new players if they had to play against Justin Wong in mvc2 who had a 10 year head start? how are scrubs supposed to deal with that as year 1 players? would be very hard to do something like that if not impossible and the scrubs will complain about how crappy the game is and then the scene slowly gets smaller because only vets will play. Its a very bad attitude for a community to have. You think kobe\allen iverson were crying about how good jordan was when he had 4 rings and looked unstoppable? hell no, they wanted a challenge and strived hard to beat him. Brand new fighting game players want an equal playing field. They want to take away the 10 years justin put in so they can play another game and hopefully have a shot.

I think if the community played games that they thought were good rather than chasing money, chasing e-fame, chasing sponsorships, the game demographic would be much more different because only good games would get play rather than games that will benefit some part of your life. This means that only good games would get support and developers would create more of those good game mechanics. ** I really hate seeing a game like sf4 be known as a “top” game with sponsored players when the game is far behind the times that kof 98 has a deeper mechanic set to play with. A game that is 14 years older than sf42012. In the whole scheme of things, nothing else that is competitive aims for a mediocre level of a game. It would be no different than if minor league baseball players got more sponsorships\money than the pro league. utterly ridiculous**

What are you saying here? That people shouldn’t try new games? It’s not like every game thrown to the US market spawns a long lived competitive scene. Remember CFJ? TvC didn’t do much better.

Yeah, TvC was a huge shame though as honestly it’s one of the best games Capcom has released the last few years, personally I think it shits all over Marvel3, flame away if you must but I’ll take Baroque over X-Factor any day. Really TvC was just killed off because it wasn’t on PS3 OR Xbox, it was on Wii, and who honestly touches that thing and has a decent stick for it (myself excluded, AC+ and Hyper Fighting are on it).

^ I don’t see any 1 year scrubs beating 10 year veterans in major tournies in sf4 so youre argument is kinda invalid.

‘if its new it will get play’ <- what about the ‘drought’ before SF4 release? There were new Fgs contantly released but playerbase was not exactly healthy or expanding.
Like it or not reality is the ‘Community’ chose this game, decided to stick with it and its the most played fighting game. So it must have some sort of attraction right?

SF4 being a ‘good game’ or ‘a POS’ is entirely subjective and a person’s opinion.
No offence but you’re sounding like a typical SRK renegade that likes to hate on SF4. C’mon.

Tekken was expanding and still with TTT2 coming to consoles at the end of this year. There was the Guilty Gear scene. Virtua Fighter was alive during those times. A lot of people did play Ono’s first released fighter Capcom Fighting Jam of course it was abandon due to how horrible it actually was. Marvel 2 was constantly evolving with new tactics.

**

**Which really just begs the question, how do you know that?

soultzula pretty much no one in this community dictates enough of the market with their wallets to determine what’s going to do well or not.

Most people who bought SF4 did it because of nostalgia/marketing purposes.

All they cared about was Ryu could fight Ken in glorious 3d and it looked decent.

You have missed the point entirely. The issue is not experienced players getting beat up by newbies, but newbies thinking they have a shot as the game hinders part of the skills their older opponents have acquired throughout the years and also gives through its engine a way of scoring a comeback, should things not go their way. The majority of people do not play games for what they are, but for what they perceive they are.

I agree that Capcom appealed to the nostalgia from SF2 to boost the SF4 sales. However, most these players quit, which can be seen by how many players proceeded to buy SSF4. As fo the ones who actually stayed with the game, a good part of them were not born when SF2 was doing its job of saving the arcade industry, or were too young to live it. Aside Daigo and, to a lesser extend, Valle, who did you see winning majors? The game has attracted much more players from other fighting games than from SF2. I’d expect HDR to die due to SF4 taking all the old players, but most of them actually stayed. The game died because much of the player base was not supporting it locally, only caring about EVO; then EVO dropped it and they got sad, while a good part of the players went back to ST, as good numbers were not happening outside EVO for HDR anyway.

But the main issue with SF4 is really why has it attracted more players from other games than from the most successful series? Because most SF2 players disliked the game, while players that loved combos, explosions and such trash felt in love with it. SF4 indeed boosted its sales from SF2 nostalgia, but its sequels did not, really. These players are from Alpha, Marvel, Tekken, Anime games and such. By now, Capcom sees SF2 as an enemy series, which should be forgotten and annihilated: they want something they can release a new version for and not have to worry about being actually better then the ghost HF and ST mean in terms of superior gameplay. Pretty much the same reason the record companies would rather sell Kate Perry rather than Deep Purple. Deep Purple = not good for their business.

You are not using that phrase correctly.
Yeah, OP probably started lurking with SF4, etc.

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I think its beyond well that game sucks, durp!!!

sf4 as a game compared to many OTHER good fighting games, is just fucking terrible and behind the times. Then as a community, we reward that crap by giving people who play that game lots of money and sponsorships? cvs2 as a game is MUCH better than the crap in sf4. Its literally retard fighter. Characters in that game can’t even dash+attack as a universal concept its 2012 people, not 1992.

When a vast majority supports the crap in SF4, it will naturally bleed into other games and its why most games right now have some shit garbage mechanic in them or just purely fucking suck. IMO with some very good tweaks to characters and the removal of XF from umvc3, you have a very worthy sequel to mvc2. It didn’t need to have I’m a scrub factor help me out please with BS mode.

and most of the people who have sponsorships in sf4, aren’t even REALLY good players when you talk about fighting game fundamentals. Mike Ross\Ayame are ok but I can think of 50 people who are beyond their skill level but since they don’t play sf4, their talent goes unknown and unrewarded. Instead of rewarding the best players playing the hardest games, we reward players who do well in a very shitty game.

Not only does sf4 suck as a game mechanically and from a balancing perspective but we reward people who are average in skill with money\sponsorships. Its sending the wrong message to the sponsors and developers entirely. There is this Japanese VS player called Kaji. Super ridiculous hit confirm skills, spacing, reaction time and his skill level is 1000x stronger than Mike Ross from a player stand point but does Kaji have a sponsorship even though he’s the better player? nope. You can be 10,000x better than people who play SF4 and you WILL never get into the sponsorship realm unless you happen to play a modern game. We’re not support the good players as we should be, we support whoever does well in a popular game regardless of how behind the times it is

MOST times when a game is brand new, regardless if its worthy or not, it usually gets some time in the tournament scene and because of that, we never stick to whats good. We stick to whats new. I’ve played ST\HF and IMO, HF-ing is definitely the better game but since ST was the last in the series, it got the last sf2 stamp and now its the main SF2 game.

fighting games to me have always been very sports like, especially when I was starting in the scene between 2k1-2k8. I had 4 games I knew would be there every year, st\3s\cvs2\mvc2. When we change to new games, we’re basically inventing a new sport and @ this pace, we’re inventing a new sport to play every year. There is a HUGE philosophical problem with this question though, not quite sure how to answer it honestly.

When Jordan played basketball, all he had to do was worry about basketball. Over the last 4 years, I’ve gone from playing basketball, to playing golf, to playing frisbee-golf to playing football. It is VERY hard to learn to master 1 game when everything gets updated or obsolete in 6 months. Jordan had 35 years of his life to master basketball, I had 6 months to play vanilla mvc3 and maybe 1 year with ultimate and if you want to stay in the scene, you have to make the jumps along with the scene to stay relevant.

seriously???

all fighting games have pieces and to determine whether or not a game is harder, you just add up all the pieces. kof98 has all the basic fundamental things in it that sf4 has like footsie\AA but it also has a faster tempo, WAY more movement and harder mixups to deal with.

of course, you could actually play the game for yourself and form your opinion like I have.

You know, the best sports are not necessarily the most complicated sports, Romanian Oinăhas been around since the 14th century and is FAR more complex than Baseball but I’m guessing you’ve never heard of it. I’m sure some Oină player could make it in MLB, but they haven’t, and perhaps that’s because there is a certain skill in mastering simplicity, and no matter how much “skill” you have, if you want more recognition you need to make it in a relevant field, or better yet, make your field relevant by enticing enough people to partake in it. Sponsors want to sell product, they wont do that on a Primal Rage stream.

can you either:

  1. embarrass yourself trying to explain this

  2. just admit that it’s a metaphysical truism

Yeah I admit, it’s completely self-apparent, but it begged illustrating for the above poster.

its hard to have this conversation with certain people because not everyone has been around long enough to understand the problems with the community. People new to fighting games think sf4 is one of the hardest to play games ever made or its one of the best, hardly the case. There is no way in hell brand new players can determine the design flaws, its impossible for them because they have no perspective.

if your first main game was sf4\mvc3, you won’t have a good opinion. Sorry but good opinions come from experience.