How about we accept the fact that we’re all human? Or accept the fact that this really is just a glorified hobby? How about we accept (above anything) the fact that this is for fun? It’s entertainment.
I mean sure, I may be getting a bit philosohpical here, but we certainly aren’t perfect, so why should our entertainment be? It’s understandable that there needs to be some form of balance here to enjoy it overall, and we do it have, but on top of that there’s a huge lack of determination, something I believe OC touched upon, and jca went furthe r into.
At one point or another we just started spoon feeding each other. Some folks just got stuck with the job on playing the new shit before everyone else, and then one region of the country or another began to discover everything. Oh yeah, c.FP beats everything. Then that’s it. If c.FP beats everything, then I’m going to use it to beat everyone.
I mean just yesterday I was playing someone in CvS2 with a team of Mai, Hoahmaru, and Blanka. Someone walks up to the cabinet with Guile, Ryu, and some other non top tier character. I win the match. After that the guy just seemingly tosses everything out the window, dismissing himself and concetrating on his own inability, and then obviously blaming it on the characters he played. How do I know this? He picked Vega, Sagat, Blanka the second time over. Come on. I wanted to just walk away from the machine. Why did he give up so easily? Was his urge to win just THAT strong that he had stick in two top tiers in a simple everyday casual match? I don’t have anything to prove against that team, and frankly my heart wasn’t in the match so I promptly lost and left.
Now I’m not turning this into Japan vs USA debate, but even NKI mentioned it in his log:
I think this is why things are a bit stagnant, and why we get so BENT on talking about a immensley balanced game. Many players in the scene are just not up for that. The proof of folks wanting to rebel against it is still there. Buktooth, Vegita-X, MegamanDS, Zaza, and plenty plenty other choice individuals in the scene do well with the characters they simply love playing with. Yeah, Sentinel should wipe the floor with Wolverine. Yeah, Storm should smack down on Rogue, and Blanka should be using Morrigan as a toilet brush, but you won’t hear that sentiment coming from said players.
As for people agreeing with me or not, that’s cool. I still say that folks start sucking it up, master their shit, and ggpo everyone or lord knows what’ll happen to us. Get some individuality into the scene, and some much needed personality. I know there’s plenty hidden talent out there.
It’s funny that you act like that knowledge didn’t play a factor in SF2, when by far THE most important factor in the SF2 games at high level was knowing your match ups. Besides all that, there’s PLENTY of things in the SF2 games that are guaranteed to kill you the first time you see them… sometimes even the fifth time you see them since some things are basically inescapable in those games.
Yeah, and Battle Gear 3 is linked to the internet. What’s your point? These are custom cabinets. Does your standard upright or Versus City connect to the internet?
Just because it’s been done doesn’t mean that it’s practical. Look at LaserDiscs. Sure, the technology was out back then to read data with a laser, but did it ever really take off? (Karaoke is an exception)
It’s true. The arcade industry has fallen behind. But how can you compare a game that was released 5 years ago with the same thing released today? Are you really going to tell me that back in 1999, when 3S was released for arcade, that anyone was really thinking about putting entire arcades online? When was PS2 released? Back in 2000. And when was Xbox released? In 2002. Think of the technological advancements made. In those 2 years, broadband internet became much more readily available, and Microsoft decided to include the networking feature in the Xbox. Sony eventually followed to have a network adapter as a peripheral. But how many years later is this?
Either way, if you hook up a system to go online, the possiblity of piracy becomes a big issue. CD-Keys, blah blah blah… Either way, I’m pretty sure it’s possible to hack just about everything that’s software.
Why do you think this is true? This is what you enjoy in a fighting game, but it is clearly not true for other people - otherwise they wouldn’t choose characters that they feel are the strongest. Also - what is the point of a game? If you ask most people, they will usually say ‘to win.’ After all, it’s what the game designers specified as the goal! That doesn’t mean you can’t still have fun when you’re doing something besides pursuing that goal, but how is that you simultaneously claim that winning is not the point and complain about not being able to win?
I’m not going to speak on the balance issues of MVC2, but this seems important to me. Capcom (and others!) do testing, even if it isn’t enough according to some. They do change the game. However, once they’ve changed the game, then they have to test it again! MVC2 was probably very different when it was first being developed. How long did Capcom have to test the final version of MVC2? Probably only enough to ensure there weren’t any obvious game-crashing bugs introduced in the last tweak.
I can’t give you any figures, but for what it’s worth: I have been to three arcades that I can think of with Silent Scope 2, and none of them had it hooked up to the internet. Even if an arcade game has that capability, how many arcades have that ability? I think the answer is 'not many.'
There were already some very good points about the problems with multiple versions of games (especially when they are difficult to differentiate) being detrimental.
There are many issues that are not addressed by this. What happens to arcades that don’t have a broadband hookup? More likely it will be some sort of proprietary connection, which makes it even worse. Or, go the standard internet route, and take your chances with the script kiddies, IP spoofing, and DDOS attacks. Either your game will only be playable in specially equipped arcades, or it will be highly fragmented. Before you suggest mailing update CDs, think about what that would mean - where do they load those CDs? Are you suggesting making all of our arcade games simply computers (Wintel machines?) put in a cabinet? I think there are big problems with that, but I won’t get into them unless you really want.
Hard drives, additional components, and running a server for them is expensive. Let’s just point out that all of these costs would be on top of whatever game companies already spend. How can they foot the bill? Any way you cut it, the game will become significantly more expensive (in addition to requiring a completely new hardware system).
Even if you could gain adoption of new hardware and facilities to support these updates, there’s still a good question about console support. Currently, it seems like console sales are making up more and more of the sales for video game companies. However, when the console version is made, it effectively sets the game in stone at the point development begins in earnest… unfortunately, only the X-Box has even the potential to support an update system like you’re describing, and even then the following should be considered: X-Box 2 (or whatever) will supposedly not have a HD. This would be possibly the most ambitious commercial use of the X-Box HD, ever.
Current internet speeds are generally not good enough nor reliable enough for the fast-paced fighting games we are used to. Fiber optic connections or a proprietary network could probably alleviate these problems, but now we’re talking about very expensive and very hypothetical stuff (even more than before!).
Cambell, I don’t disagree with you. it’s a factor in all fighting games to varying degrees. I wasn’t trying to imply that in the sf2 games that wasn’t the case, or that tiers don’t exist. If I did, it was just in an attempt to emphasize my point: complexity versus accesibility.
Here’s the catch- if you go out and buy a FPS, how much does it cost you? 30, 40 bucks? How much does buying a game for the arcade cost? GGXX:#R is nearly $1000, VF4:Evolution is around $1200. If they have to sell these games at these prices, it automatically means they don’t expect to sell ridiculous amounts of copies. And that’s 20 times how much they charge for a console version of the same game. With a margin like that, you should be expecting them to risk the very least possible. To them, from a corporate profit standpoint, it’s not worth it.
And what’s your point about things being online? Capcom is out to make a profit. SRK isn’t. (well, if they are, they’re keeping it a secret from me) They’re 2 completely different entities in all aspects.
I didn’t care to read much of your post, but this caught my eye and I had to speak my mind.
I don’t really believe you feel this way. I just think you were looking for a method of contradiction in which to start your mostly base argument. If you do feel this way, then you lack personality and can be accurately lumped into the “console scrub” category along with other people who don’t know how to think or innovate for themselves.
IMO, any fighting game fan worth their salt goes with the character that is at best, an extension of said personality. Tournament conditions are the only exception I see to the rule, and I’d have infinite more respect for the player that got 7th using his favorite character, rather than the player that won using his “tourney capable” character.
Anyone that chooses to aggressively disagree, I offer a hearty “fuck you” in advance, as I feel the lack of individuality and ideal expression is what makes not just fighting games, but video games in general pale in comparison to other forms of media.
I think it just varies from person to person. There’s nothing wrong with choosing a character because they are top tier. There’s nothing wrong with choosing a character just because you like them, either. Neither are “superior” approaches.
The best games, of course, offer you the choice to do either and still have a challenging fight/chance to win, respectively. But those games are few and far between. And even in those games, tiers exist. People keep referencing GGXX#Reload, and yes, you can win with May or Ky, but it is harder to do so with those characters than with Slayer or Eddie.
I really think people should stop obsessing over what a given game should be, and just look at what the game actually is. If a game is imbalanced enough so that you greatly reduce your chances at successful competetive play with certain characters, just ask yourself…
Am I willing to place lower in tournaments to use my favorite character? If not, then ask yourself, do I like the overall game enough to enjoy it even when I’m not using my favorite character? If the answer to that question is no, drop the game and move on. There are plenty of other games out there.
Serpent, you made good points, indeed. The reason you read so many things that you don’t remember saying is because I was mainly addressing The Demon. I was going to give you e hefty reply, but the topic has turned a diferent direction and it would be out of place. Plus, it would just turn into a needless back and forth, anyway.
Anyway, my biggest problem is the fact that people love to spout things without paying attention to specifics. IF their character isn’t good, they complain about the horrid balance in a game. IF their character is good, most people won’t say a word. So it’s not balance their even looking for.
People spend so much time saying “just balance games better, it’s easy” or “just add more characters, it’s easy.” They don’t think practically. Adding 50 cahracters to CaFiJa in the beginning would be nice. But, if some source glitch was found and every character ended up having to bea heavily tweaked, that would be terrible from a developers standpoint and would hinder them in releasing future games. Having a small, easily handled roster for the first game is good for us AND them. It makes it easier for them to change things for future installments because you KNOW we’ll find problems.
Imagine CVS1 with CVS2’s options. Someone mentioned how many combinations were possible in CVS2. IF CVS1 had that many options, CVS2 would retain many things from CVS1 that needed to be changed, simply because of the problems not coming up due to the options.
People also need to understand the work that goes into adding characters into games. People also need to understand that games are a business. It’s BLATANTLY obvious that Capcom has moved away from 2D gaming. You’ve read the interviews. You heard about big dogs of Capcom leaving to start new companies. You don’t think they’ve ASKED for a budget to hire some animators? You don’t think they might have WANTED to make more up to date graphics? The fact that CaFiJa even exists shows that, yes, there are some peole at Capcom who respect the group who made them a major contender. It’s not a secret that they could have put this work into the next RE or DMC and probably made more money. This game is a bonus for all of us.
People also seem to not be able to see the difference between a 2D fighter and a game like Starcraft or counterstrike. They also can’t see the difference between the arcade scene and computer gaming. In CS, a person who wants the best pays for it and gets it. A person buys a good computer. They pay for the services to keep up to date. Most arcades with good comp aren’t even at distinguished arcades. SVGL is a mini-golf arcade. What makes people think arcade owners will want to pay for the technology? And if they’re running a golf course, there’s a good chance their primary concern is NOT checking to see if new patches are out for their arcades, or even knowing what to do with their “Update” CD. Then there’s the hackers etc. etc.
Arcades are distributers, not consumers. Patches and the like put the cost on them. THAT’S why it’s impractical. The CONSUMERS pay for their equipment in computer gaming. That’s why it works.
Indeed. It’s more practical for a first project in a series to be on a small scale.
I also agree with this, 100%
You know, I also work on Mugen, and that’s part of the reason I respect the work that goes behind development so much. MAking a frickin’ title screen takes a while. I’ve been tweaking the same character for 2 years and just recently had to go back and once again redo all the damage, hit properties and paustimes for her. Why? Because I wanted her to be a character good for RTSD as opposed to an average damage technical character like originally intended. And i could either up everyones defense, up everyones life, change some game mechanic bases etc. etc. Then I added a Yun-like dive kick which changed her whole game and I had to revamp her AGAIN. IT’s not easy work.
But it’s the lack of practicality. This is what many people don’t understand. This is why we still have so many recycled grahpics and the like in games. Capcom isn’t focusing primarily on 2D fighters, anymore. Funding has other priorities.
I challenged Buk simply because of his team. I asked him why he choose them and he said it was because he started with them and didn’t change when everyone moved to top tiers. I thought that was cool because I also don’t flock to top tiers. Another guy at SVGL plays with Raiden. Another with Yuri, simply because they started with them. It’s dope. It makes the whole game seem better when i’m not fighting the same guys over and over. i have had many people tell me that i’m an interesting match up because I use uncommon characters in every game I play. It’s not that I try to be eccentric, it’s that I use who I like. If you play TS with 5 friends and they all use someone different, that’s so much more interesting than 4 people using Ken.
I agree to an extent. If a character is TOO broken, or sucks TOO bad, I would say something. But not ever character has to be tops.
I don’t think that’s what he meant, but I get your point. By the way, Buk… when you go to SVGL again… REVENGE! Rematch for the embarassing destroying of my 3 CVS2 characters with one R1 Iori. I could give excuses, but I got none…
Regard your first sentance. There would bee too many shortcoming when it comes to patching the arcade fighting scene. I’ve already explained that. Just imagine going to work at a… retail store of some sort and then having to personally pay to keep your register updated with the latest technology. Many people wouldn’t even update, and thus business would suffer.
While I get what you’re saying 100% and agree 100%, there are those people who associate 100% of fun with winning.