Fantasy Strike - easy to execute fighting game

[LordxMugen]

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. Your entire argument was based around that ST had no gimmicks (Even though it did, in fact, have multiple) despite nothing else being the same. The walk speeds are radically different, there are more attacks per character in ST, . Yes, at first glance they look the same, but they arent as similar as you make them out to be. I also dont understand why you demonize supposed gimmicks. Yomi counter could arguably be considered a mechanic that you otherwise hate, turning a throw tech into 1 or 2 pips of damage. Also, ST DID have gimmicks. Damage and stun was variable so a combo could cause stun and lead to a TOD or just not stun at all. All in all your argument relies on the fact that you cant overcome the new mechanics. Yes, Ultras were dumb. But, does that mean that IV somehow is less focused on fundamentals than ST or fantasy strike? No. I’m not even sure you that you know what fundamentals means, it seems like you just throw generic “skill” terms around despite them not making sense in the situation.

How is Yomi Counter a gimmick, especially with a dedicated throw button? You made the CHOICE of DOING NOTHING because you thought throwing was the optimal strategy made by your opponent. Literally OPENING YOURSELF UP to an attack. Like no, just stop right there.

And I demonize gimmicks because theyre bad mechanics that are meant to spice the game up, but dont actually DO ANYTHING but get in its way. And even you admit that its true with the Ultra comment. And I never once said SFIV doesnt rely on fundamentals, even if its mechanics arent the greatest. Like my problem in modern fighting games is more about gimmick/mechanic bloat, willful insertion of BAD MOVES and noob trap gimmicks into characters, and the obfuscation of rules and techniques that prevent players who want to be good and have the understanding and knowledge to BE GOOD but cant because they have to devote hours of their time to understanding THE FUCKING RULES OF THE GAME (frames, optimal safe combos, how to use the gimmicks safely) instead of actually just playing the game. Just because we had to do that in the 90s arcade scene doesnt make bullshit NOT bullshit.

[crotchpuncha]

Which are all things you have to do in Super Turbo. Takes a really long time to get good at ST because it’s very dense, something this game is not, so no, it;s not like ST, it’s not like a sequel to ST, it goes in the opposite direction of Super Turbo. Games not like ST. Doesn’t even have fucking lows. It’s as dumb as people saying ST is the Chess of fighting games.

Stop it.

[LordxMugen]

Which are all things you have to do in Super Turbo. Takes a really long time to get good at ST because it’s very dense, something this game is not, so no, it;s not like ST, it’s not like a sequel to ST, it goes in the opposite direction of Super Turbo. Games not like ST. Doesn’t even have fucking lows. It’s as dumb as people saying ST is the Chess of fighting games.

Stop it.

its not dense, simply requires execution because of frame links. one day, people like you will understand how thats not actually DEPTH.

[crotchpuncha]

And one day people like you will learn that putting words in other peoples mouths isn’t an argument.

ST is more then links by the way fuck head.

[Cronopio]

This is a game with slow walk speeds, much worse normals, much less depth in terms of ground game due to less normals and no lows (for example a Dhalsim that has a myriad of AAs -all necessary- is lost in this setup), a throw system that lets you counter the attacker (that now incorporates a throw button), the physics are completely different, input variety is lost even with ghetto attempts like Geiger, one button specials that make reacting to stuff much easier, effectively affecting how the game plays because lowering execution never affects “execution” alone in a vacuum… and so on.

This game feels nothing like ST. Saying it is an evolution of it shows very little understanding of ST, or just blind shilling, take your pick. Having a lot of fun with the wild ignorant comparisons though, keep up the good show.

[LordxMugen]

“This is a game with slow walk speeds…”
**
They said they were going to make everyone (except Midori) faster.**

“much less depth in terms of ground game due to less normals and no lows”

Less normals because EVERY MOVE every character has is good. Also lows arent needed because the game uses a triangle Attack, Block, Throw system like in the original game. This makes Throw the new way to open up blocks. Maybe if you did some research, you would know that.

“a throw system that lets you counter the attacker (that now incorporates a throw button)”

** If by “counter the attacker” you mean a throw that counters an attack, Rook and Midori already do this. If you mean “countering an attacker’s throw” then thats what Yomi Counters are for.**

“input variety is lost even with ghetto attempts like Geiger, one button specials that make reacting to stuff much easier, effectively affecting how the game plays because lowering execution never affects “execution” alone in a vacuum”

Im not sure what it is you mean by all of this. You dont need a hundred different moves in this game just like you dont need a hundred different moves in ST. Cause when every button you press is a good button, all you as the player needs to know is the proper time and place to use it. Does this make people who are already good at fighters even with people who are not? Absolutely not. Just that by getting rid of the execution BS weve been associating with modern fighters weve made it about what fighting games are REALLY ABOUT, which is seeing which player can out think and out play the other with their chosen character. The game didnt remove the skill involved in playing it. It merely put the dynamic back where it was supposed to be. No longer are you fighting the GAME, you are fighting the PLAYER. Was this so hard for you to figure out or do i need to draw pretty pictures and diagram to get my point across?

[Pertho]

**As I have said before, this game is the sequel to ST **and needs to be treated as if Alpha and the rest never existed. I really dont know how else to put it.

I wonder how much time people have to spend playing ST to say something this dumb.

I’m guessing like all of 2 minutes because if they played more they’d know this is a dumb thing to say.

This game is way different than ST for a lot of good reasons and a other bad ones. That’s okay. It doesn’t need to be ST.

[OceanMachine]

Also lows arent needed because the game uses a triangle Attack, Block, Throw system like in the original game.

wat

[Pertho]

Also lows arent needed because the game uses a triangle Attack, Block, Throw system like in the original game.

wat

You didn’t know? SF2 didn’t have any lows.

P.S. He is probably referring to the card game.

[Hecatom]

**As I have said before, this game is the sequel to ST **and needs to be treated as if Alpha and the rest never existed. I really dont know how else to put it.

I wonder how much time people have to spend playing ST to say something this dumb.

I’m guessing like all of 2 minutes because if they played more they’d know this is a dumb thing to say.

This game is way different than ST for a lot of good reasons and a other bad ones. That’s okay. It doesn’t need to be ST.

I am gonna play the devil’s advocate and say that what this fool is trying to say (but is too dumb to say) is that FS is the continuation of what ST has become on the mind of the collective, a simple game that is accessible from the start without sacrificeng (much) depth and that can serve as a gateway for the genre.

[LordxMugen]

wat

I was talking about the Yomi card game. i didnt expect so many people take me so literally about that triangle shit, for a moment i forgot what generation I’m in.

[Cronopio]

Less normals because EVERY MOVE every character has is good. Also lows arent needed because the game uses a triangle Attack, Block, Throw system like in the original game. This makes Throw the new way to open up blocks. Maybe if you did some research, you would know that.

OK, let’s see Sim. He uses these normals:

Far LP: counters some forward charging moves (headbutt, Blanka Ball). AA from max range.

Far MP: long range poke.

Far HP: long range poke and AA in certain matchups, punisher.

Far MK: preemptive AA, also AA at some distances, also can beat or trade FB attempts.

Far: similar to MK but more damage, longer range and recovery.

Back LP: AA at 45° close range approx.

Back MP: AA for jumps that aim at your head and get past close LP.

Back HP: punisher at close range, combo after AA or crossup slide.

Back LK: AA against characters like Guile.

Back HK: good meaty, can stop forward charging moves.

Cr. back LP: AA at max range, tick, great priority.

Cr. back LK: tick.

Cr back MK: medium tick, combos into itself.

Cr. back HK: AA from max range.

Crounching far punches: far AA against certain characters, goes under some projectiles like Guile’s.

Slides: AA from different distances against characters like shotos. LK is a great tick, MK can crossup after a noogie against Claw and Chun.

Jump MK: beats some moves like Sagat’s TU, far poke, AA.

Jump HK: AA against things like walldives and some Chun jumps.

Jump MP: anti walldive.

Jump HP: AA against some high priority jump ins that beat your ground AAs like Chun or Honda.

All those are useful, his AA normals have very specific ranges and you must use the correct one from the right distance. Now, how do you have a character like that with one normal button?

Also ST had lows and throws, very powerful ones that are harder to reverse, and lows were a great way to punish tech attempts besides hitting low and being AAs. Maybe if you actually played ST you would know that.

And Sim is an extreme example, but really most characters in ST have way more useful normals than you can get from a single button. If you don’t see how this greatly dumbs depth down and how it goes against the design of a game with a very complex ground game like ST… then nothing will.

[LordxMugen]

Except you dont NEED lows when you have an automatic way to beat blocking by THROWING dummy! OMFG like you CANT be this stupid. What would be the point of it if i could just automatically throw you or cross you up? like what would it accomplish other than being a pointless input? Like I’m just gonna chalk it up to you “not getting it” because I have explained how the game works and youre just talking about nonsense. Clearly this is going nowhere and youre gonna stay on your side of the fence and Im gonna stay on mine.

[OceanMachine]

wat

I was talking about the Yomi card game. i didnt expect so many people take me so literally about that triangle shit, for a moment i forgot what generation I’m in.

The rest of your posts were a comparison between ST and FS, so the misunderstanding could come naturally.

Except you dont NEED lows when you have an automatic way to beat blocking by THROWING dummy! OMFG like you CANT be this stupid. What would be the point of it if i could just automatically throw you or cross you up?

I mean, throws beat blocks in SF2 too. The low/high game just made blocking a little more complex, making possible things like empty jump lows, which was the point of Cronopio.

[Muttonman]

The low vs throw in a 1 button throw no tech game is pretty academic; you either hold back to walk out of the throw and just take the pressure or block low to beat the low. That’s the fundamental RPS at the core of it. Fantasy Strike has a similar system; you either block the move or Yomi counter. The removal of the low doesn’t actually change the formula that much, instead making the mixup just strike throw like a grappler, complete with punishment for going throw and them making the right read.

Now, the throw button has changed things somewhat; if you guess edge of range throw and back away you don’t have to take pressure now and can whiff punish. Combined with Yomi Counter this makes throwing much more of a dangerous move to toss out.

The actual reason that Fantasy Strike feels like a continuation of ST and a sequel to HDR instead of part of the modern fighting game styling is its focus on micro situations. You have a very limited number of options and each tends to be very powerful in its niche. Modern fighters tend to either have a large amount of low difference options to cover the overall game (6 buttons each with a standing, close standing, crouching, neutral jumping, and forward jumping option before you even get into command normals and specials!) comparatively speaking or a focus around universal subsystems and specialized characters (parries and blitz shields and barrier guard and chickenblock). You end up with a large focus on in game heuristics because there are an incredibly large amount of gamestates which either have a universal option or just taking the mixup.

ST is different in that if you were to compare any popular fighter to chess, it takes the cake. ST is about understanding individual gamestates far more than just about anything that came after it. When their Bishop is 1 square away, has charge, and full Super while your Knight have equal life, 2 squares from the corner, and is at 3 frames advantage after making them block your crouching medium Lance, what are the best choices to make? ST incentivized players to learn not just the general matchup, but as many of the individual game states so that when the problem of Vega vs Blanka popped up in the newspaper you could show how it was Mate for Vega in 10 seconds 90% of the time. What we refer to as setplay was standard play.

Fantasy Strike is an attempt to return to that type of gamefeel, where everything is setplay. By having 3 ground moves and 3 jumping moves it contracts the gamespace enough that a player can understand every situation much easier and actually know the proper response. You’re expected to figure out what gamestates are most advantageous to you and use your ability to read your opponent in order to force them to happen. Due to its simplicity, its much more understandable to players when these gamestates exist outside of your standard heuristics such as “he’s knocked down” or “I’ve cornered him” or “I have frame advantage” but instead “I’m 1 character length away with my Ghost off CD and he has no Gear charge or Super.”

This turns neutral and footsies from a quasi-religious article of faith into a very solid concept for your average Joe; it’s much easier to see what you’re doing wrong and what the proper response is as you’re going to be engaging in the same neutral gamestates fairly often. Suddenly you get how to deal with No-Guile in footsies and why the neutral jump is so important. Grapplers cease to be a mystery (although they still feel kind of shitty to fight against). The rushdown mixup is now obvious instead of obtuse.

This is the absolute core of Sirlin’s entire design process, and I think it works well. The game has other serious problems, but it is of the Street Fighter 2 lineage and I’d like to see him able to bring the whole thing to life as a solid game.

[JohnGrimm]

I like how people think ST is some mythical game that is only about footsies and mind games and not about the obscene bullshit setplay and oki it actually was. I don’t know how anyone can say that ST was a pure game when you got shit like Claw walldive 50/50’s or Balrog throw loops or tick command throws that might as well be inescapable because the reversal window is so trash. There are very few matchups in ST that are actually free from bullshit and are only about smart play.

[Muttonman]

I like how people think ST is some mythical game that is only about footsies and mind games and not about the obscene bullshit setplay and oki it actually was. I don’t know how anyone can say that ST was a pure game when you got shit like Claw walldive 50/50’s or Balrog throw loops or tick command throws that might as well be inescapable because the reversal window is so trash. There are very few matchups in ST that are actually free from bullshit and are only about smart play.

I mean, that’s kind of my point; it’s way more setplay than modern games are. Setplay is just when you’re able to collapse the gamestates in to a manageable amount of options and thus don’t have to rely on general heuristics. Footsies is just the latter aspect, which when a player gets a solid enough feel for the game, can be then collapsed back into setplay.

[tataki]

I don’t know how anyone can say that ST was a pure game when you got shit like Claw walldive 50/50’s or Balrog throw loops or tick command throws that might as well be inescapable because the reversal window is so trash.

Nostalgia goggles, plus the fact that the latter SF titles went to very different directions and none of them managed to be “like HF/ST only better”.

[LordxMugen]

I like how people think ST is some mythical game that is only about footsies and mind games and not about the obscene bullshit setplay and oki it actually was. I don’t know how anyone can say that ST was a pure game when you got shit like Claw walldive 50/50’s or Balrog throw loops or tick command throws that might as well be inescapable because the reversal window is so trash. There are very few matchups in ST that are actually free from bullshit and are only about smart play.

Oh im sure nobody here pretends SF2 ANYTHING isnt filled with some amount of bullshit (Ultra being probably the worst at it). Im just saying from the way the game both presents its matchups and how you fight and play them with its few moves but good buttons, thats what FS is or at least trying to convey. a much more simple game than whats currently available yes, but theres still plenty there and plenty of strategy in it. Comparisons to ST and HDR just make the most sense since it was the first to take what is a very simple game nowadays but still definitely has meat on the bones.

[Evolution169]

I never got hardcore into SF2, but isn’t a big part of the footsies game literally just trying to hit the opponent’s foot with a low attack? Fantasy Strike strike doesn’t have that at all. Some of those “useless buttons” in ST were used for baiting attacks that could be punished because they made it look like you were moving forward.

Calling Fantasy Strike a sequel or successor to ST is probably bit much. Seems more like one man’s vision of what ST should be.