Why is the HK axe kick considered a big nerf? I noticed someone said it would mess with set ups at the unity thread, but how? Wouldn’t the set up have more to do with recovery and not start up? It would only help a little if anything else. The real nerf to the set up is the recovery to his sweep being reduced since that’s the move that is used to most to whiff for a set up after HK axe kick.
As for your list eternal. One big buff and a bunch of minor ones, most of which I mentioned. I think those are actually my words to lol.
I don’t agree with it. Ultra fix, 6f c.mk, and the buff to ex axe kick are the only ones worth putting forward. Sweep needs to be faster…not less punishable. Light tatsu doesn’t need any fixing. It’s c.mp interacting with Rufus and Blanka’s goofy hitboxes that causes it to whiff. Fix those instead…and tons of characters would benefit, not just eryu. The cl.mk buff makes no sense to me, either, and you’ve got no explanation. It’s blockstun only, so it’s not gonna open up combos. If it’s to make a true blockstring with it…he’s already got cl.mp xx mk axe kick.
Also, EX shaku being +11 on block would allow him to do silly chip damage to finish someone off with ex shaku -> ultra 1. With 11 frame startup on the ultra it’d be a true block string, right? Not really saying it’s to strong, just making sure you’re aware. It’s already +9 on block.
My list.
-Fix U2
-6f c.mk
-6f c.hk(clone akuma’s)
-invincibility on Ex axe kick
I think a 6f sweep and cr. MK(along with any minor buffs they may give him) would put him in top 10 territory. And I have absolutely no problem with that, make it so Capcom.
There are cases where the height of the opponent seems to influenciates the result of the setup, some of them work when you hit the HK AK on an airborn opponent and when you land the AK on a grounded guy they misses.
Depending on how they do the tweak it may change the setups aswell. If they exchange the last startup frame by an active frame, the move will recover one frame later. If they simply erase one of the startup frames, the move may hit at a different active frame as it does now, and the resultant setup may differ.
I dont want to risk all those setups for nothing, there wont be any new combo or anything, it will just to be easier to perform a combo that already is easy to do.
regarding Sweep: this is why I didn’t included this buff:
Now, I’m not requesting like other people “to nerf vortex”, I’m not requesting system changes like remove fadc on block, but I think we should try to improve the stand up game more, and less the kd.
That’s why I preffer to make Evil Ryu’s footsie game better than to turn him into another vortex character.
Plus, most people said - choose between cr mk and sweep buff, not both.
And I think this would also make Evil Ryu more similar to Ryu (and would give people less reasons to use Ryu).
cl Mk: the person who proposed it made no explanation. At that moment it seemd to me ok - -7 on block was kinda much, but after checking the normal…yeah, maybe remove it.
Red fireball - many requested it - this way it would still have 1 more frame of recovery than Akuma (his ex Shaku is +12). Another idea was to decrease start up by 1 frame.
L Tatsu: you sure about that ? some said is a glitch or something.
I could replace cl Mk buff with:
cl Hp: reduce start up by 1 frame (make combos a little easier). Would you agree with this ?
@ DeathGun: alright, if you think H Axe kick is not a good idea, I will remove it. But…unfortunatelly I didn’t find any other ideas for Evil Ryu to replace this buff with.
Maybe make H Axe Kick an overhead instead ?
Its not that LK tatsu is glitching, they want to lower the hitbox a bit. Have none of you ever tried to do the combo on blanka :P, his LK tatsu wont connect. So i think they just need to adjust that a bit. But thats an EXTREMELY minor buff that wont really affect anything and people wont notice.
If you change theirs hurtboxes you tweak the whole game, you can get a lot of undesired side effects. If you changes the lk tatsu’s hitbox 1 pixel you fix the combo without causing NO SIDE EFFECTS at all.
Turning the HK Axe Kick into an overhead wouldnt hurt his setups but would to be an useless change imo. We, Evil Ryu users, discussed it quite a bit over capcom’s forums and here aswell. Imo it would be uselss because it have a god damm slow startup and wont surprise anywone, plus that Evil Ryu have no special move that needs to be blocked low, so after Evil Ryu cancels anything into any special, the opponent doesnt need even think about anything, he just needs to stand up.
Here is the list of changes I suggested to Capcom, take a look into it and see if theres anything you want to add to your own list of suggestions. Let me warn you that many users here in the forum doesnt agree with me on the changes, specially the lack of a suggestion about increasing the startup of one of his c.MK and c.HK:
[details=Spoiler]Increase his life from 900 to 950
He is seem as a glass cannon, but his cannon is far from good. He doesnt have the defensive and ofensive safeness that would to justify such low life. Stun is fine.
Axe Kicks:
Change something on the Axe Kicks’ visual.
That will make it easier for theirs opponents to discern which version of the move is being performed.
LK Tatsumaki
Increase its horizontal hitbox [LK Tatsu first hitbox “Height” from 0.2 to 0.3]. (check the change in this video)
The LK. Tatsu wont connect in the MK Axe Kick, c.MP xx LK Tatsu against certain chars. Fix that.
LK Axe Kick:
Change its blockstun in order to change the move from -7f to -3f on block [“TgtAnimTime “ on block from 15 to 20]; (video)
Increase its pushback on block [“PushbackDist” on block from 1.1 to 1.2]; (video)
Make it to cause a hard knockdown on counter-hit; (video)
The LK Axe Kick's only utility right now is to do a very few combos that can’t be performed with c.MK xx Hadoken. And even on such cases there is going to be a lot of risks involved.
Usually, you are going to bait a poke from the opponent to then throw your c.mk from the distance and to cancel it onto the LK Axe Kick. It will be very hard to hit the c.mk on reaction due its slow startup and you wont be able to hit-confirm it so if the opponent manages to block the c.mk you get punished during the execution of the LK Axe Kick (c.mk xx LK Axe Kick isn’t a true block string) or you get punished after the LK Axe Kick gets blocked (LK Axe Kick is -7f on block). If you manage to hit the c.MK and the LK Axe Kick, you’re gonna have to FADC and to perform a 1f link with c.LP or cl.MP in order to continue the combo.
When you bait something to punish with c.MK xx LK.AK the opponent tends to be crouched, the follow up with FADC, cl.MP (1f link) will keep the opponent crouched, diminishing Evil Ryu’s possibilities. If you decide to try a cr.LP after the FADC you will have to do a 1f link without the aid of plinking unless you are using a modified controller. If you hit the c.MK xx LK Axe Kick and do not to FADC you will get yourself at such range where you cant do much with the +1f you got, Evil Ryu cant link anything after his c.LP from such range. If the opponent knows Evil Ryu, he knows that he can to spam a 3f move quite safely or to walk back 1 or 2 frames before to crouch, this way he will dodge a kara-throw in the first possible frame and no low poke will hit him in time.
All in all, the move isn’t very useful. It may seem troublesome for who plays against Evil Ryu because they doesn’t knows the c.MK and the Axe Kicks’ frame datas and they also have a hard time distinguishing between the 3 versions of the move, that’s gonna change as Evil Ryu gets more popular.
Changing it from -7f to -3f on block and increasing its pushback also on block a tinny bit will help turning it into a pressure tool to finish block strings in a safer way and build some meter, while helping Evil Ryu to break focus more efficiently (Evil Ryu lacks tools for such purpose). The new blockstun still favors the defender once most of the 5f normals in the game are going to reach Evil Ryu and will also beat any of his moves but a Shoryuken or an Ultra (and the DP will miss if his opponent does nothing).
Ultra 2:
-Decrease its second DP’s startup time or make the first DP’s hits to launch the opponent higher in the air.
One of those changes shall help stopping it from hitting the first DP and missing the subsequent ones.
s.LP:
Change his s.LP’s startup to 3f (its 4f actually) and its active frames to 4f (its 3f actually);
-Get its horizontal hurtbox shortened.
Evil Ryu doesn’t have answers for many advancing moves in the game, that change will help him dealing with Feilong’s rekkas, Akuma’s s.HK, Dhalsim’s limbs, Adon’s s.HK and others.
c.MK:
-Increase its blockstun by 1 frame [TgtAnimTime on block from 13 to 14];
-Decrease its pushback on block [PushbackDist from 0.5 to 0.3].
(video)
The c.MK will aways be used from it max range because it sucks from anywhere else. The c.MK xx hadoken string isn’t a true block string from max range against 90% of the cast, so it sucks a bit from max range as well. With slight changes on c.MK’s blockstun and pushback the c.MK xx hadoken becomes a true block string while allowing everything that interrupts a c.MK xx LK Axe Kick in the current version to still interrupt it (2f grabs, DPs) and all the moves that are owned when they try to interrupt it are still getting owned (armored moves, slow pokes, slow non-invincible specials).
cl.HP (added 04-07-13):
-Change its minimum distance required to perfom the move [“PositionRestrictionDistance” from 1.2 to 1.3]
(video)
He cant to do c.LK, c.LP, cl.HP against an opponent thats waking up, the standing animation pushes Evil Ryu away in a way the cl.HP wont come out after the c.LK, c.LP. In fact Evil Ryu also cant do 2xc.L, cl.HP against waking up opponents with maybe a couple of exceptions. Even if you do it w/o OSing the second move (you can do the chainning faster) you wont get that cl.HP out against an opponent that is waking up. Changing the distance requirement according to my sugestion will fix that, and seems like that wont generate any unwanted side-effects (no new combos, no loopings). See the video in the next post to see how it works.
f.MK:
Increase its downward hitbox.
It whiffs against many characters when they throw low pokes or when they crouch-tech, which defeats the purpose of the move.
Dive Kick:
-Increase its hitstun by 1f,
(video)
Sometimes Evil Ryu can’t combo after a divekick because he hits the opponent strangely due some weird hurtboxes. Adding 1 extra frame of hitstun will fix that, without allowing Evil Ryu to connect a cl.HP after the dive. Evil Ryu also cant combo after a divekick at all against tall characters, while Im not sure the extra 1f of hitstun will solve that completely I think the combo will start working on at least a few of them.
This change will allow Evil Ryu to connect a c.mp after a divekick against certain chars and that changes 2 things: 1- more time for Evil Ryu to hitconfirm and 2- extra damage on its combos.
The extra hitconfirming time isnt exactly a buff because the dive kick with c.LP already gives Evil Ryu a lot of time to hitconfirm, the extra time to do that won’t change the amount of times Evil Ryu will to confirm the combo started with dive kick correctly.
The extra damage wont be an issue aswell because the combo with dive kick and c.MP will miss even more than the combo with c.LP misses in the current version, you will see it beeing used one out of a hundred times.
nj.MP:
-Change something on its hurtboxes in order to allow Evil Ryu to jump over slow projectiles while punching without getting hit when it already passed by him.
The nj.MP is his only move that hits downwards and due the weirdo hurtboxes he cant do nothing against an aproaching opponent while he is neutral jumping the slow projectile.
Shoryukens:
Make his MP and HP Shoryukens to do 130 and 160 damage when hitting while E.R. is airborne.
(video)
That will help against divers, they never get hit cleanly, in the worse possible scenario they trade with the dp, taking almost no damage.
Give his EX Shoryuken full invincibility until the end of the active frames.
That’s gonna help his wake up game against characters whose non EX DPs have a ridiculously high amount of invincible frames on theirs startups. Shall help him on others specific situations, like Zangief jumping towards him with enough meter to use his U2.
Teleport:
Change something on his teleports in order the opponent knows in which direction he is going and what distance he is going to travel.
This way, people can to punish properly if they baited it. Evil Ryu could aways to face towards the direction hes moving, independently of where his opponent is. The color of the teleport's shadow could to be different for the PPP and the KKK versions. Every other teleport in the game that travels towards the opponent but doesn't stops near him should to behave the same way.
-Give him a new move, a b.LK, the move should have hit and hurt boxes identical to the cl.LK, same frame data but 10 recovery frames instead of 7 (hit and block stun would have to get increased in order to remain +3 and -1), not cancelable and not chainable (3x c.lLKxx b.LK not allowed). Keep the cl.LK identical as it is now.
Or
Extends his s.MP downward hitbox.
(video)
He lacks a footsie tool for such range badly. A b.LK would to fill that gap w/o allowing Evil Ryu to follow with anything damaging from it. A horizontally bigger hitbox for his s.MP will help him to fight from such range aswell, the current hitbox of the move tends to miss a lot on opponents poking from such range.
These changes alone wont solve Evil Ryu's problems in the game, most of them are going to get solved with changes on his opponents. I will post something on theirs forums as soon as they get open.[/details]
The videos I recorded with some of the changes I proposed:
I found it funny that no one wants to give Evil Ryu a faster sweep but they would have been willing to give one to Ken whom has a ton of unblockables and ambiguous cross ups.
Blame that on Akuma I guess. I guess everybody thinks tatsu > sweep automatically equals vortex. But seriously it seems what most people here don’t want is another knockdown and pressure character regardless of how weak Evil Ryu’s options are off of a sweep.
It was a very popular request over at the Unity boards. Me and few other guys decided not to push for it not because we thought he shouldn’t have it, but because we believe Capcom is too hesitant to speed up either sweep or low forward so we decided to put more emphasis on low forward since it would probably benefit Evil Ryu more. Personally I’d prefer the sweep because I think I could do more with it. I would take health and damage nerfs as well if I could have both. I’ll make one more push for it in the final week of suggestions just for the hell of it. Doubt it will mean anything but I’ll try anyways.
I’m going to stick by my comment about the buffs I want to see. I really think he needs both a 6f sweep and c.mk to be a good character. The other buffs you’re suggesting are the type that are supposed to help a character in a specific situation or matchup. Like when Emblemlord suggest extending Gat’s hurtbox down during s.hk, so that a couple characters that get owned by it would have a chance to beat it(sry can’t remember which…maybe bison?). But, here there’s no thought behind them as to what matchup they’ll help. What matchup is 2 more frames of blockstun on lk axe kick going to help? I can’t really think of any. When I use that I’m worried about getting punished by command grabs and supers…both I’m still unsafe to at -5. I’d suggest more pushback if I wanted that to be safer…so I’m out of range of the grabs. But I don’t even think that’s smart. It’s not a move that’s supposed to be safe chip damage…it’s a combo tool. I can’t think of anywhere one less frame on red fireball would help, either. No one has done this kind of work for Eryu. There’s no top players here in the US playing him. Leave that part to JPN and Capcom. Keep our list simple.
About the combo vs. Rufus and Blanka. I’m not really sure I’d call it a glitch. What happens is their hit reel animation when you hit with c.mp pushes their hurtbox back, out of range of the lk tatsu. The thing is, though, c.lp works perfectly fine against these two characters. Situations like this come up vs. these two with a ton of characters, though. Pretty much every character I’ve played has a combo I use all the time that I can’t use against them. It’s just how the game is. A few characters have goofy or small hurtboxes and some combos whiff against them. These aren’t even bad matches for him. If c.lp didn’t connect, I’d be screaming for them to fix it, too, but it does, so it’s not a big deal.
On 4f cl.hp. Wouldn’t hurt to stick that in. The 1f links don’t bug me to much if I keep up on practicing them, but I know a lot of people struggle with them.
On a side note…you’re right, the buffs I’m asking for would give people less reason to use Ryu. That’s the point, though. Right now, any level headed, smart thinking player has no reason to choose Eryu over Ryu if they want to win. I switch to Ryu when I run out of options with Eryu. You do get to a point where the mixups stop working and the pokes are just way to slow. Then you have to play Ryu, who is much more solid fundamentally. That’s why you don’t see him anywhere…just like, a couple players in Japan and Sako exhibitions. Once you have to play a fundamental game, eryu is toast.
Im really against a 4f clHP. It wont give him new tools to help solving his problems. Its just something else to make him easier to play. Another reason I dont want to see a 4f cl.HP is because I suggested a bigger hitstun for the dive, and a 4f move will to combo against many chars after the dive.
What Id like to see about the cl.HP is a smaller proximity requirement, as I said in my post with the suggestions and the video. It will give Evil Ryu better options to pressure a waking up opponent, it will improve his frametraps overall, with good options to hitconfirm into cl.HP. Doing only c.LP into cl.HP make it hard to cancel properly in order to get safe or keep the combo going.
Agreed, the problem is that Capcom did not make Evil Ryu unique enough. Ken and Akuma at least have a different play style. Evil Ryu is pretty much trying to do the same thing Ryu does. Zone with fireballs and play footsies, except he quite a be worse in the latter of the two. Yeah, making his cr. MK and sweep 6f each will make him quite a bit better. Maybe even enough to make Ryu obsolete, but that’s not our problem. It’s Capcom’s for designing Evil Ryu this way.
Don’t get me wrong, I think I understand what you’re trying to get at. Just adjust the hitbox to make it wiff less as a whole, not just on Rufus and Blanka in. But from that post, it just seems like you want the usual bnb to work on every character. It’s just a matter of changing the combo for certain characters but still getting similar damage for slightly better execution. Akuma has the same problem when it comes to comboing cr.strong against these characters after a st.roundhouse. I guess it would be nice, but I feel like this isn’t that big of a deal compared to what else Evil Ryu should have in his arsenal.
mmm I feel like having Evil Ryu’s low forward being sped up will be a HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE buff just because of how much we can get off of it but I briefly talked about the match up with Lionheart about the Evil Ryu vs Sagat. Evil Ryu already does extremely well in that match because of that low forward into half his life. By speeding it up, it just might make this match up hell for Sagat and other various characters lol. I think the speed up might benefit him against certain characters that have waaay better footsies or equal to it now, but I still have to take some other characters into consideration. Hypothetically Dudley for example, (possibly a bad example because Dudley does have… well ass normals really. At least against Evil Ryu.) if Evil Ryu plays the game properly against Dudley, that match is pretty ass for Dudley. The only benefit would be if Dudley gets in on Evil Ryu and stuns him but Evil Ryu could easily stun him and rush him down in return. BUT I’M ALL ABOUT BUFFING EVIL RYU! I just wanted to throw that out there lol
Anyways, I still keep hearing about changes on light axe kick and in all honesty, I never really had a problem with the move as a whole. I actually liked being able to add stun or reset during a combo to bait or apply more pressure instead of finishing a scaled down combo. I understand you can do this with medium axe kick for less damage and more hitstun anyway, but I feel like the weird adjustment from being left at +1 vs +4 when baiting someone mashing or even respecting your game is always nice. I think it’s the difference between a person mashing too much or waiting for that medium axekick hitstun.
3:45
I don’t think giving it more ultility when applying light axe kick to bocking opponents would benefit too heavily as an Evil Ryu player personally. I feel like it’s fine the way it is right now.
its not an important change or anything, its just that I think it wasnt an intentional feature, and its hella easy to fix, so why not? Im not gonna use it against Rufus anyway, but I see no point on start working on the game again and do not change something isnt working the way they expected to once they gonna wast 30 seconds doing that tweak. If it was the devs’s intention that the combo worked the way it does against Rufus and Blanka then disconsider what I just wrote.
Btw, the mk AK, c.LP s.MP didnt work against Blanka here.
The low forward being sped up to 6f would be a huge buff, and it’s one I think Evil Ryu needs. I don’t think it would create bad match ups though. It’s still not fast enough to dominate and when whiffed it has more recovery frames then Ryu’s low forward so it’s more punishable. Besides, it’s not like hit confirming low forward automatically equals 400 damage. You need two bars for that and they aren’t readily available. It’s still too slow to combo into, so we don’t get hit confirmed axe kick combos from jabs either. I think at 6f it would be perfectly fair considering where the character stands right now.
Honestly I wouldn’t think he needs it if he had a better teleport, or more life, or a faster sweep, or even a vortex. But he has none of these, he’s simply a footsie character and if that’s what he suppose to be then he should be kind of good at it since it’s his only reliable way to deal damage. As for the LK axe kick buff. I only want it buffed so it could be used more safely as a pressure tool and to fish for FADC combos with low forward > LK axe kick instead of low forward > fireball.
As for Evil Ryu vs Dudley, I think it’s even. He can blow up fireballs of course and his st. HP beats all of Evil Ryu’s normals I think. Speeding up the low forward won’t change this. Hell I don’t think it changes any matches drastically. It really does help Evil Ryu, but I don’t think it would turn him into a nightmare for any character. The normal buffs would just turn him into another Ryu IMO. A lot of 5-5’s across the board.
Dudley’s normals get raped by eryu’s in footsies. If you keep him at s.mk/c.mk/s.hp range, there’s not much he can press aside from f+hp and that’s really slow. Eryu’s s.hp is really good in this match.