This might be just me, but I get a bit confused when people say that “zoning isn’t a thing in this game” and cite superdashes and vanishes as the reasons why. Those are not the approach options that scare me when I try to keep people out.
You should backdash or reflect after a vanish.
Outside of 18’s disc, chip damage is crazy low in this game. A lot of good zoning tools (regular ki blasts, vegeta’s and piccolo’s orbs) can be super dashed through on reaction and super dash also gives full screen punishes for whiffed beams. Vanish will straight up punish projectiles on block.
The combination of all of this makes zoning incredibly bad in this game as a whole and not worth going for especially when there is a (essentially) 1 button press to bypass it. They arent approach options but they punish zoning incredibly well and way too easy
Decided to jump back online just to get to Super Saiyan rank really quickly, wanted that one at least.
It’s really hard to react to vanish and superdash in the delay when the games pace is already as fast as it is, I can’t handle it. Props to anyone who can.
You can pretty much vanish on reaction to beams, Kis are stuffed by homing, mashable parry that you can cancel into vanish to punish beams. Pretty hard to keep someone in a certain zone with projectiles when they have all those tools.
There’s no complete frame data avaiable for this game yet right?
lol
Yamcha
No one knows yamchas st.h is plus on block yet, so I get free damage all the time lol
I refuse to believe that Ginyu is that bad. No way.
Ginyu Force being on a fixed rotation will inevitably keep him down in the tier list. Between resources that are always available or can be gained through in game actions and resources that might never be available when you need them the first ones will always win in terms of efficiency.
Ginyu will probably stay as a niche character that only true madmen will dare to master.
Am I the only one that feels like anti-airing is super risky?
Unless their assists are on cooldown I don’t even try anymore on super dash, and I feel like it’s not even worth it to try on a regular jump in.
2H is punishable for some reason and you’ll get your teeth kicked in if they empty jump.
Also how do you guys deal with instant tag ins on block? Can you react to that shit and uppercut the incoming character if you get them in the corner?
Don’t know if someone made a video already confirming this or post a comment here but I feel like you can cancel your dash recovery into a normal, special or super.
Okay, I think you misunderstand me. I’m not saying zoning is particularly good. However, I’m not agreeing on why that is the case. The typical style of ArcSys space control is still present; the point of zoning isn’t actually to kill the opponent from fullscreen, it’s to either restrict options or annoying the opponent into doing something stupid. The reason it’s not particularly good is, in my opinion, mainly because of forward moving normals, lack of good options against IADs (2H is not a Guilty Gear 6P), low chip damage on specials along with no chip KO, and assists that pretty easily covers the opponent when they try to get in. Plus some character specific stuff that’s occasionally infuriating. That stuff is problematic, and part of why the end goal of a zoner has to be to get in themselves, on their terms, rather than chipping the opponent out from afar.
But ki blasts, vanishes and super dashes? Vanishes is actually one of the few saving graces of zoning, since it means you can convert a fullscreen beam into offense if they block on the ground, or a combo if it hits them. You can vanish my beams on reaction if you really want to, but do you really want to spend a single bar on getting 850 damage on me and sending me back fullscreen? I’m usually happy when my opponent does that, it’s not a good use of meter in my opinion. I’m usually more scared if I block a vanish than if I get hit by one.
Superdashes are strong, but they have a shitty risk-reward-ratio if they get called out 2H, and they’re not all that hard to react to if people try to use them as an approach option. They’re great at whiff punishing big stuff, but that still requires the opponent to whiff something big, and that’s obviously not something they should do.
Ki blasts though? Yeah, ki blasts suck, we agree there. It’s to the point where they shouldn’t even be used for anything but combos, and the odd case of baiting people into superdashing into a 2H at the end of a string, so I’m a bit puzzled as to why anyone would mention them in terms of zoning tools when they’re very clearly not even a viable option for that.
Ki blasts can be very useful. I use all my characters ki blasts a lot. Krillins is really good space control as long as you condition your opponent. Goku has a good anti air ki blast and yamchas has really fast start up that I use with goku beam assist to get pressure.
I think ki blasts are fine, if you condition your opponent into not doing s.dashes, you can legit zone out any/most approaches.
if you have the right assist, you can even bait the s.dash and punish.
Look at how the tier list is presented.
Ginyu may be the lowest, but he’s still B Rank so that should tell you what I already said before.
Every character in this game is solid and even the weakest character still has far better advantages than the weakest character in another game entirely.
It feels like a GG or DOA5 Tierlist. There are obvious superiors but even the weakest character can still be extremely good if used properly.
I do, once I hit I put a beam assist to keep the enemy pinned and go in their face again. Worst case scenario vanish resets the situation and you stop any kind of zone control your enemy had.
Guilty Gear “zoning” has never really been zoning as it is not the primary goal but just another means to start offense, but in this game it is nearly non-existent since your enemy can always get out of any zone you put him into. Then there’s also deflect that negates pushback and chip completely and you can cancel into a lvl3 or vanish to thwart zoning. Also converting from a beam isn’t really zoning, it’s more of a long range poke/punish you can do, but you can’t base your strategy on controlling and confining an opponent where you want to with these mechanics.
Homing dashes not only have the advantage of going through ki blasts, they are also pretty hard to contest with anything other than 2H as they tend to beat or clash with many normals. From far away they are not that hard to AA with 2H, but if you are airborne things get tougher and at mid range they are significantly harder to react to and if you fail you have them on your face at a neutral situation where you have to guess what they will do.
Arc really wants to be on your opponent’s face in this game and all mechanics and lack of defensive options on block point to that. I can have fun with that since I like Vampire Savior which is pretty much that (although with much better normals and pushblocks and useful guardcancels), but I would prefer more strategical variety and that the game didn’t punish defensive play so much. Arc really hates defensive playstyles.
I still think people are just misevaluating the game and being inaccurate in their descriptions. There’s so much going on.
Ki Blasts for the most part are designed to do 3 things in neutral:
Bait your opponent into using a super dash so you can combo them with 2H.
Use them to gain some sort of frame advantage on block.
Randomly do a BIT of damage to opponents that carelessly run into them.
They aren’t meant to be keepaway tools.
These newer games aren’t being made with keepaway in mind. They are being made with respect to doing everything to enforce that neutral happens a lot and that people poke the shit out of each other. The game doesn’t even have strong mixups for the most part as a universal mechanic. You want stronger mixups you need to use a character with built in high/lows or left/rights… and even then, that’s only really used to annoy the opponent and get them pressing buttons because most mixup based combo starters scale like stupid.
As far as characters like Yamcha having telegraphed mixups that are easy to block… well I don’t believe it. Dude can crossup, throw, high/low and frame trap… that’s just to much shit. If you think you can win just crossing people like umvc3 wolverine… you can’t. Gotta mix that shit up.
And there are plenty of defensive resources already. You have invincible moves, crossup protection, alpha counters, a parry, a wakeup system that gives you lots of options once on the ground, and a forced neutral after a character dies plus the ability to tag out and recover blue health, of which there is usually a lot, along with a mechanic that gives you the ability to get out of the corner for 1 bar if you use it at the correct time.
DHC’s and TOD’s don’t really have much to do with it. You can site stuff like S.Kill’s Domination 101 stuff or David Sirlin’s ST tutorial on why assists are always going to be important in any tag anime or vs game. Even in games like Dengeki Bunko, that game has long assist cooldowns and assists are still a huge part of the game. Which it’s arguable the assists in that game are mostly better than the ones in this game barring Vegeta’s and that’s a 1v1 game.
Assists are like basically allowing you to use the tools of 2 characters at once. Like being able to fireball and then having zero recovery to cancel into an uppercut if someone jumps. It breaks traditional spacing rules and allows new spacings and vectors to attack. That reason alone always makes it a huge relevance in any game that they are in. It’s the closest to controlling 2 characters at once without actually controlling 2 characters at once.
Sonicfox is basically trying to suppose that MSS or Wesker/Vergil/Magneto type teams will dominate the meta, but that’s already 2 games we’ve seen where teams that revolve around everyone just being point characters and going HAM only lasts for so long. Point based teams dominate early when people don’t have the assist meta down because they can just meter dump on touches and just transition into other cheap point characters. Once the assist based teams assert their meta though, they will simply be able to cover areas of the screen and force people into mix ups that those point based teams can. Which then brings the game to a point where if you’re not playing a Vegeta level assist, you’re essentially not playing the game optimally in the most basic sense anymore.
Writing options about how to deal with Vegeta assist is like writing out options for dealing with Ken c.MK super in 3S or Sagat’s s.LK super in CVS2. There are “ways” to deal with those things, but only so you have to deal with them again and again and again any ways. It’s just part of the character, part of a hard meta tool that they can always enforce on you and what makes them who they are.
You’re basically trying to deal with a 2 on 1 fight. You either beat the assist and leave yourself vulnerable to the point, or you beat the point and locked down still by the assist. You can’t cover two things at once all the time from different angles consistently other than huge meter blow ups. Which even stuff like MVC2/MVC3 Storm can only do so much.
Vegeta has the best assist in the game, bar none. The problem is that if you are good enough, you can find other assist that will do relatively the same thing, at this point in time.
As an example, when sonicfox gets blocked, he primarily uses his assist just to put the opponent in blockstun and then run an iad mixup. The same mixup that Vegeta gives you on block. The best mixup that most characters are going to get in that situation since crossups can’t be done because of crossup protection.
Sonicfox uses hits assist to do this… if he can do it with that 1 hit assist, then that makes Vegeta assist a lot less powerful. It’s stoll the best assist in the game and controls a ridiculous amount of space, but the cooldown is huge and since it’s huge it isn’t the wisest thing to just throw it out in neutral and possibly waste it by whiffing it or getting it stuffed.
Doesn’t make the assist bad by any means, but I understand sonicfox saying what he said.