I pretty much agree with JJJ and RagingStormX on the AA issue. Just wanted to add that using the dodge as part of AA is a strategy; like any strategy if it’s abused there will be negative consequences. But, using it every once in while is great because dodge-based AA can take more damage than other options.
wait, so we can dodge and cancel that into a grab? and that can be an AA?
thanks for the reply dr. B. I forgot S-groove had delayed getup, good call. do you ever put S-bison as your R2? he seems like your best character so it would kinda make sense to give him the most life. i understand wanting the S-sagat vs another sagat matchup, but otherwise S-bison makes more sense for your playstyle IMO. his level 1 super isn’t quite as abusable, but still.
his level 1 hurricane super is also awesome defensively and leaves him pretty much safe. i still remember john choi playing a warmup match on a sunday at a midwest championships a long time ago with S-ryu and OCV’ing people left and right. it was pretty scary to watch.
EDIT- what do you guys think about S-yama? i’ve read in previous threads how he’s a good anti-blanka, but he seems like one of those characters with a lot of potential in S-groove. what are his biggest weaknesses? i know he usually gets outpoked by vega, but dodge obviously helps that a ton. AA’ing can be iffy as well, but dodge also gives him another option.
peace
Yamazaki just isn’t as scary without a lvl 2/3, something S rarely gets. You can time dodge the grab super as AA at lvl one which is unescapable, I never got timing down 100%, it’s harder than it sounds. His dodge attacks are good, and dodge attack xx sand xx slash is good to get them away. Low jump is great but overall it isn’t that Yama isn’t good is S-groove, it just like many characters he is better in other grooves.
To answer Zal. S-grooves main flaw is meter just charges to damn slow, and is fucking dumb to charge a lvl 3. Yeah after knockdowns you can sometimes charge up alot, but you (in alot of cases) are missing opportunitys to run up and pressure more, mix up, etc. Dodge isn’t as useful vs P/K cause they can just press back or foward to jd/parry for no type or risk at all. Yeah unlimited lvl 1s when in the red, but you are near dead by then. And even if you arent dead the match probably doesn’t have alot of time left lol.
Good things are of course, people have to actually poke smart or will get knocked on their ass all day or comboed. Mind games with charging are good, and dodge is pretty damn good when not whored like is unbeatable. Dodge is safer than roll, not being able to be hit cause no recovering, allowing for multiple dodges to avoid chip death etc from sonic hurricanes etc. Once in desperation, non-N-groove peeps can have a hard time or at least get annoyed as fuck. Multiple hurricane supers and c.mk/s.fp xx super with Ryu, c.mk/s.fp/c.fp xx super with Sagat, Knee press nightmare literally becomes one. S-groove super hurt like hell, and some characters who get one can lvl one after (Chun, Ryu, Geese in corner, Terry etc). S-groove power bonus when charged is nice addition.
well, s-yama is one of my favourate s-characters. to me he is basically a guard-break/rushdown machine, and he doesn’t need super to do damage or anti-air in s. both his dodge cancels (punch and kick) are very good. he can also be anti-rushdown and anti-crossup. In addition, bison cannot do head stomp or devil reverse on s-yama (actually any s-character in general) or he eats a fat combo…lol according to my irl experimental results: e.g. kindevu tried head stomp me couple times, and his bison died before his muscle memory told him to stop…
so my s-dodge cancel tier list goes like this:
cammy
yama
sakura
ryu
ken
akuma
guile
eagle
for the above characters, both their d-cancels are usable with good special/super cancel after or good range for the knock down d-cancel. s-iori is almost there, but some characters can duck his d-cancel kick. same with s-sagat’s d-cancel punch. s-athena’s d-cancels are also good but she can’t really cancel anything after her d-cancel kick, so I don’t really like her…lol I also like hibiki’s d-cancel punch whiff, but her d-cancel kick lacks range. I would put s-chun up there too if her d-cancel kick had more range since her d-cancel punch can setup a wonderful bird kick trap against tall characters and also hit confirm into super (you can also do d-cancel punch into lighting leg then link s-strong into super; this one is kinda hard though…lol). finally, s-bison’s d-cancel kick is just too slow, but he is still one of my favourate r2 in s.
and you guys should know by now whose lv. 1 supers are abusable, so I won’t bother with it…lol btw, s-gief is also very usable, and don’t forget the damage bonus when your lifebar is flashing.
@JJJ - That Bison dodge shit is hot.
I also want to see what you guys think of S-Athena. My friend uses her as an R2 and of course theres Peachy. She seems slept upon in S Groove.
She has a pretty good Dodge punch which i say is better than Ryu’s even. Dodge Kick is decent, can cancel into Teleport to escape corners, abusable/strong as fuck level 1s with SCB, decent anti air with s.mp and mp DP, and of course, crouching Fierce. Seems like a pretty strong zoning/annoyance character.
She fucks up k groove when she has unlimited lvl 1s meter if they have no reversal. Point blank super in the corner, throw follow up xN. If they have no dp they cant do anything but jd. They can mash all they want, start up is invincible and +1 on block. From there mix up with super, super, command grab, etc etc, you get the point. Also Lvl 3 super does 40% chip damage on biggies like Gief, Sagat, Geese, etc. Her telelport isnt 2 good. Has start up and can be thrown. She is good, just not great.
that’s one thing i was wondering- what S-groove character do you guys think gives P-groove and K-groove the most trouble?
in terms of level 1 super spam, S-athena is pretty high up there. but otherwise she can play really linearly and predictably. i like S-chun vs P-groove but that is more of a general character design than something S-groove gives her in particular.
thoughts?
Truth. If i am using K Groove, its such a fucking bitch to do any damage to her when she has low life. Just hope that you have a huge life lead so you have an option of turtling (since the fireball portion of the super does dick damage at level 1).
S - Todo against K Groove is too good, spam level 1 waves and you cant do much about it if they do it smartly. Actually Todo in general pisses K Groove off… In P however, without super spammage, Todo is remarkably worse off if they can parry worth a damn since you cant just simply spam waves.
Everyone else seems more into the character than what actually S Groove gives them imo…
(Jokingly) that kind of sounds like a “kara roll-cancel”… Obviously it’s not as strong, but it’s like having a few frames of invincibility (roll-cancel) at the start of a [normal] move (kara).
BTW, somehow I found that S-Groove actually forces me to use more strategy than with all other grooves. I mean this in a good way.
/scrub
against p-groove, I like to play sakura and spam her fb super. if they are at the corner and you are abit closer than half a screen away, then they have no way out of the fb super spam except parry or super through the gaps (they can’t even jump…lol). and it’s not hard to bait the super either. and if they happen to parry everything, then you can go forward abit and mix it up with c. forward x super, dodge into throw, dodge cancel whiff into super, or overhead, etc… mind game is fun!
I also like to play characters with airthrow against p/k groove, but that’s just me…lol
There are 3 main aspects to S-groove which differentiates it from all other grooves in Cvs2. The Dodge, the Power Build (or Charge), and Desperation. It’s my opinion, that out of these aspects, the charge is the most important and integral to top play. Super meter more than RCs and anything else in Cvs2 defines how the game is played. A person with lvl3 meter has a massive advantage over someone with none, in just about every groove. With that said, S-Groove is the only groove in the game that gives the player direct control over charging their super meter. Thus, this would seem like a big strength, and it is. However, this control is also S-grooves biggest weakness. As the primary method of building meter, the charge adds another dynamic to be concerned about that the other grooves don’t have. Unfortunately, this makes S-Groove difficult to learn, and best for experienced players.
Therefore, it’s very important to learn the ins and outs of the Power Build. And within this S-groove system, one technique in particular is crucial. This theoretical technique is called the Charge Feint, or CF for short. The CF strategy is exactly that: make the opponent think your going to charge when you’re really not. The actual charge can come out very fast, so no opponent will be able to tell you’re doing it intermediately. It can be stopped almost instantly, readying you for defence when necessary. the main point of CFs is build on the opponent’s surprise and uncertainty. This allows you to counter attack the opponent, or charge more frequently, and it also gives S-Groove a pretty good feint or draw.
Using charging and CFs also require a certain degree of execution and an arbitrary structure of the super meter. Players have to memorize the acceleration of the meter, and try to place it in specific parts of the gauge. This is done for strategic and tactical purposes. Here are some that I think are important.
-14 frame charge: i once heard that humans can’t react immediately to anything much faster than 14/60 of a second. So, I think this is a good starting point for CFs. As your confidence in the opponent’s reaction increases, increase the duration of the charge accordingly.
-x-99%: it can be useful to charge from any percentage of meter to 99%. You may want to max out when a advantage presents itself instead of right away. The closest charge possible let’s you max out that much faster, which is especially important when inn desperation
-zero-charge (or ZC): a charge so short in duration you actually charge nothing. So why is this useful? When close to max, especially in desperation, your opponent will react to you differently. Using ZCs in this instant may cause a moment of hesitation or an opening.
-short burst (or SB): Full CFs allow the longest charge possible. SBs are power builds not long-lasting enough in duration to be considered a full CF. SBs are done when you’re not sure how the opponent will react (to vary the duration of the charge), as they are less efficient than full CFs. Like ZCs, these are integral to the function of the CF. Enough SBs and ZCs in a row may setup exactly like a full CF while not building meter as efficiently.
-x-100% then super: this is most useful when in desperation with lvl3. Using super the moment you have it may catch the opponent by surprise.
I hope the above isn’t too convoluted or unclear. I spent a while recopying and clarifying my notes.
Great News !!! I have vids I will update everyone with here and there…STAY TUNED for more
DR.B ( RICH KID ACADEMY / OCV CREW ) vs. LB - EVO 2008 CvS2 Tourney Match
Match 1
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Match 2
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S-Groove 4 Life !!!
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I like using my entire C-Groove team in S-Groove. Yama/Chun/Sagat. With a dodge, Yama can turtle even harder. (I use Yama as a turtle/battery. But since it’s sgroove, you cant battery >_>)
Chun, she’s really dangerous with infinite lvl1 kick supers. almost any whiffs, just hitxxsupper = you winning.
Sagat with run is just dangerous all around. sagat’s power, becoming mobile is really fun.
I also love, i mean LOVE using Bison. dodge, fierce xx psycho crusher. he’s just so much fun.
S-groove in general is so much fun. lol
What ever happened to Peachy?
DR.B vs. DJ-B13 ( CvS2 - Nor Cal Regionals 2003 )
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I havent heard much recently…I do have a great S vs. S casual match of ours from an old Seattle Tourney. I have to get it off my parents pc’s hard drive. STay tuned I will post it. -DR.B
So this idea of offensive dodging is really just like SF4 focus attack, if the S-character has a decent cancellable move out of the dodge.