Eh I like the art style, characters and aesthetics, but the gameplay is just not for me. In MVC2 You had to do resets and it’s much faster. In Skullgirls combos can go on for 10-15 seconds and good players know how to work around the infinity breaker. Also it’s quite slower and way to easy too hit confirm.
Fighting Game Community era topic. Yeah.
The current version of Skullgirls is just as reset heavy as MvC2 ever since Mike added in an undizzy mechanic.
I rarely ever get dizzy in a match. Dizzy only happens when you’re getting your butt handed to you. If you’re fighting back effectively and landing hits. You should stop their pressure giving your stun level time to go back to zero. If you’re getting stunned enough to complain about it. You might want to brush up on your defense and poking.
I don’t play games exclusively because they have dizzy but it is not the end of the world if it is in a game that I happen to play regularly…There are a good amount of games that I own that don’t have the dizzy mechanic.
You shouldn’t have read anything other than what was stated in my post.
I liked the game, I just know my reaction speed is too slow to play it at a higher level than most.
Beginner don’t know how to block for sure. Not pressing buttons and blocking properly is way harder than most combos and it’s something that takes a very long time to develop. I think dizzy is there to remind you of that. I understand the OP’s point but he doesn’t really understand the game at a high level yet.
Nah…a true gentleman doesn’t need stun display gauge
Combos are poor game design. Why should I get punished by getting hit more after I’ve already gotten hit once!?
OP is a scrub. Ha ha ha ha!
I think stun is fine as is. The only issue I have with stun is when it stays at a certain value when blocking. For example, Akuma gets hit by Zangief’s HP headbutt which is 600 stun. Zangief jumps in with a body splash into a bnb. Akuma manages to block everything but he still has that 600 stun to worry about because blocking doesn’t allow stun to decrease. The deciding factor now is whether or not to be defensive and try and escape the pressure to let the stun cool down, or go on the offensive and hope for the same thing. In both situations, you’ll risk getting hit and then you’ll definitely get stunned. I just feel like blocking shouldn’t lock down the stun value to whatever you got hit with last. It should decrease just like it would if you were walking, crouching, etc.
[details=Spoiler]The more I think about it, the more it really does feel like a balance of ‘that particular game design’. With Seth, when I would experiment on combos and resets, I played them out as though they were combos, so offensively its nothing more than a combo extender conceptually. Defensively, it feels akin to breaking air combos in UMVC3 - where it’s a guessing game.
Real quick while I’m on it, those saying “block better” are idiots. Yes you can improve your defense to minimize getting dizzy, but it all comes down to a series of guesses and reads of your opponent, screw up once and you can end up dizzy.
Anyway, I think there is a game design balance between offense and defense and stun is a way to ‘push’ offense - similar to guardcrush. On one hand you eat a combo for getting hit too much, on the other hand you eat a combo for blocking too much. Get punished for mistakes or get punished for turtling? This is made more complicated by the actual offensive options of the game. I’m NOT great by any stretch in SF4, but I’ll use it and UMVC3 as my gauges.
In Sf4 - how can you attack the other person? There is the metagame of footsies and pokes. The other person can simply not engage this behavior (see vanilla Rog & Blanka who just sat there). You have/had vacuums, where the goal was to score a knockdown and use the limited options to create high percentage mixups. You ‘could’ chip, but most ‘chipping’ in SF4 is more of a footsy tool to open them up for real damage or harasses them into jumping into something stupid.
In UMVC3, footsies are still present, but due to the speed of the game are way less obvious and prevalent. This speed leads to an extremely high volume match of resets. On top of that, chipping is a real threat. From VJ to doom to Morrigan.
So if you were to have guard crushes in UMvC3, there would be NO reason to block, it would be full offense all the time. First person hit loses and not because of ToD combos. If someone is ‘laming out’ via blocking, chip will eat them up, quick enough, and the speed of the game allows for a significant amount of ways to ‘open’ someone up if you will. So guard crush isn’t needed. As for dizzy…I can’t tell you if the game has it or not, because characters in a situation that would be akin TO getting dizzy are usually ‘dead’.
I’ll throw a 3D game in here - Tekken and/or SC. The sheer volume of mixups from normal ass moves, makes holding down back or guard - suicide. In fact, the footsy aspect of these games is so high (at least IMO) with the range of attacks from a neutral position, that something like momentum is much harder to establish, making something like dizzy, just not needed. You’ll either Oki someone to death, or juggle them to death.
Back to SF4 though, you don’t have a high volume of neutral mixups. Gief can cover normals with throws. Akuma can milk his overhead chop a little bit. However, all in all, the offensive options are limited compared to Tekken or UMvC3 (not saying they aren’t there). So, it is NECESSARY for their to be ways of either breaking defense or continuing offense. SF4 does NEED either guard crush and/or dizzy. I can’t sit back and say I’d take guard crush over dizzy or anything like that, good defense in SF4 is a heavy mixture of avoidance, absorption, invincibility, and blocking, so I’m not sure how much gc would actually change things. When Blanka would just sit there in Vanilla, GC wouldn’t change anything, so its hard to judge the impact it owuld have. On the flip, dizzy isn’t too different. The hardest part is cracking the shell so to speak, so dizzy just makes it more rewarding once you’ve done so, but its not ‘free’ and requires planning and practice. As Gief, it’s a great ‘fear’ tool to keep people in a position for more offense.[/details]
TLDR version - fast, offensive heavy games don’t need guard crush or dizzy, but a game likes SF4 with fewer ways to open some one up, needs to either reward for doing so, or reward for pushing the flow.
- :bluu:
It should decrease at a slower rate than when you aren’t getting hit, but I agree.
I think there is a design consideration for why it doesn’t decrease even when you’re on block. It’s that it advantages the player on block to do so. If you are successfully blocking everything so far, the good thing going for you is that, you are successfully blocking everything so far. but because there are no infinite chains (and any that is found should and would be removed), that means you are still continuously blocking your opponent instead of counter attacking something that you already know where the weakness is. So if your stun doesn’t decrease, the game actually 'Resumes" when one of a few things happen. 1. You escape. 2. You get hit. 3. They stop attacking. But if your stun decreases, you’re being rewarded for successfully blocking, but on the other hand, the opponent is ‘punished’ for successfully pressuring you, and when he finally gets in a hit, but your stun is back to 0, he’s actually being punished overall. So, it’s actually a lesser of two…evils. (not evil but you know what I mean).
This is the point where some of you say “But sometimes it’s just so hard to counter this particular pressure string”. Then it’s your bad match up if you think you have no way out. Or you’re just not good enough to react, or you don’t know how to, or you’re not trained.
But it all boils down to “You should know where to counter attack instead of blocking continuously in a situation where you are successfully blocking continuously because there is not block string that is so safe that can be done over and over again at you where a. you can’t escape or b. you can’t punish.”
And if ever there is a situation like this, by right, the game has to be rebalanced. Unfortunately rebalances happen few and far in between, that is why there might be some frustration (because it bumps up the tiering for characters able to do these strings) in specific circumstances. But so far, since Vanilla until now, there hasn’t been one so super ultra overwhelming pressure string that affects so many characters .
As to whether dizzy is even a good mechanic, it’s complicated.
Getting damage is punishment for getting hit. Getting a Dizzy is punishment for getting hit too many times in a row.
The complaint here is that beginners find it too punishing because they’re getting hit a lot. Then suddenly, they’re getting hit a lot more. Buttt, even then, they’d be getting hit a lot more anyway! So say they improve, and they don’t get hit so much continuously, they will get less dizzied by separate hits, but will get dizzied by two solid combos, both done in a short amount of time. So then they get even better, and they’re not dizzied so much separate hits, and only really get dizzied by good players who have a solid pressure on them. ALSO, getting hit in a dizzy counts toward your combo from before, so damage scaling occurs, which is not as bad as one would think if it were 2 noobs playing against one another.
On the other hand, dizzies let the beginners know that they should be trying to put pressure on the enemy. It rewards the player for placing pressure. so beginners start to learn that, perhaps they should learn some combos, and not always jump in kick and sweep, jump back, jump in kick and sweep, or anything they think is a good solid strategy to win that actually really isn’t.
[s]Another thing is, it seems like the bigger characters, that are supposed to be harder to get in, don’t reallly have more moves that do more stun. However they do have very far ranging moves (Gief’s Sweep, Jumping Toward HP, T,Hawk standing HK for example) that do say , 200 stun, and more damage than other characters. Good for long range pressure pokes but isn’t really a pressure sting. Also their combos
T.Hawk basic -> Jump HK(120, 200), S.Mp(90, 100), T.buster (160, 200) without scaling down -> (370Dam, 500Stun)
Ryu basic equivalent -> Jump HK (100, 200), S.HP (100, 200), Heavy SRK (150, 200) without scaling down -> (450Dam, 600Stun)
Aren’t the type to dizzy you quick in a combo because, they’re all not about combos! (Seriously when was T.Hawk or Gief or Hakan or Honda all about complicated combos?)
However they now have the chance to get you one good one with their versions of poking from far and heavy attacks, and from say, tricky Banishing flats into [/s]
It’s too complicated to explain.
Let me try again.
It does give faster lighter, easier to get in characters who can hit a lot a disadvantage in that they usually have lesser stamina and stun, so they balance out in being unable to trade hits more or get hit more and make them be able to STAY STILL to be hit, just for once, by the guys who have a hard time getting in. It gives the harder to get in characters a chance to poke from further out while trying to get in, meanwhile, going “if you trade with me too often too soon, you will get dizzied, and I will get in, so don’t try lock me out by trading hits too often because i have higher stun resistance.” The balanced characters have it in between, and dizzy is also another way for the developers to nerf an otherwise just harder to balance character simply because they were made…weird, like Seth, or Dhalsim, or if they’re just strong like Akuma. Of course, the dynamics of the play don’t make this the way dizzy plays out, but it’s the general broad idea.
On the other hand these same fast characters who do less damage per hit but can do longer combos can also do more dizzy in a combo, because that’s what they’re about, which rewards them, if they pressure and get in more hits (if if they do stupid show offy using EX, Stun Combos like Dudley (Which if you can perform, you deserve the reward to)) with a dizzy. but you know. it’s not like you can really get in another half life with whatever you have left. It just feels good for the player (This is User Experience, something game designers have to consider)
I’m going to edit this if I find a simpler way to describe it, it doesn’t sound too right at the moment. It did generally feel this way playing through old games until SSF4 at least. (Honestly I haven’t touched USF4 but I think it’s still the same.)
Just out of curiosity: which game behaves this way? Seems very strange.
Stun punishes the worse player for shitty defense.
There ARE exceptions. (SF4 vortex, Ibuki and Viper are the current gen offenders) but when implemented well, it adds an interesting dynamic to the game.
Check this… In Garou Densetsu: Wild Ambition your super meter IS your stun gauge. Getting hit means you lose meter AND are closer to getting dizzied.
sexy as fuck imo.
You’re joking, right?
NOPE. Sexy as fuck <- FACT.
Getting hit = Disrupting your Ki
Disrupting your Ki = Losing Power
I still don’t get this revenge meter shit.
The DragonBall Z Super Butoden games also did this (And I believe Final Bout as well?), spending meter you didn’t have would stun you lol.
Pretty sure SF4 does. But if not, I know Alpha 3 does for sure. Not sure why it’s strange. I thought more older SF games like ST had this mechanic. I don’t think 3s does this though.