To backtrack on the tatsu invulnerability, seems they didn’t properly list the hitboxes in the note that came with the hitbox vids. Cuz there is another color of hitbox they didn’t show…a green that’s the color of projectile hitboxes. The green you normally see is lighter than this one, and if you look closely, you can see it on the tatsu’s upper body. That’s a strike-invulnerable hitbox.
Hey you’re right! The hurtbox that is invincible against strike is actually a bit brighter than others. If that video still stays true, I guess that means only his leg at the front side is vulnerable against strike, because that bright hurtbox is located not only above his waist but also on his back leg. Thanks a lot man.
It be nice if tatsu worked like guy’s super where it whiffs too many hits he stops.
i think you’re being a bit hasty there! what they could do is to adjust goukens centre point on the active frames of his cr.lk so that when you cancel cr.lk with a special gouken shfts forward kara style. that way you would have extended range for lp palm but only when cancelled from cr.lk. gouken is buffed, everyone is happy
All I know is I just saw the new range on lp palm and gouken is still underpowered, it’s still useless in footsies, gouken is defensively weak with no cr.lk x lppalm
It’s not tip of c.lk but it should be good for cr.tech buffer lp palm… We’ll have to see.
Keep in mind we also have old LP palm back so focus dashing through fireballs is riskier. Did you play Gouken in Super? I don’t remember.
So I finally had time to reply to this. I respect your point of view, but I have an counter-argument for each one of your points.
DISCLAIMER: Although it will sound a bit like it, I’m not saying it’s piece of cake. Playing gouken is never easy in this game. What I’m saying is that you can manage footsies and do well.
Bison can be a pain, but Cr. HK alone deals with both of those normal moves. It goes under st. hk and outranges st. mk.
trades are in your advantage. Cr. HP also when properly spaced will trade with those for your advantage and with lk scissors. You can buffer fireballs when throwing it which is cool.
Just watch out for the focus attacks.
Fireballs can be used at close range since you can see bison’s jump arc a mile away.
The main problem here , I believe has nothing to do with gouken’s normals, its basically bison’s walk speed, which he can use to move in and out of range.
I’m not even mentioning random kongo’s.
Gouken’s St. mk has enough range to deal with both st. hk and st. mk, believe me or not. Sagat’s St. hk is also beaten by gouken’s cr. Hk, and is straight outranged by st. mk. Again, sagat can’t deal a lot of damage to you if throw a kongo at about a dash and a half away, unless he knows you’re doing it. So just put your arms in range and try it SPARINGLY.
St. Mk beats all jaguar kicks and even jaguar tooth if timed properly ground and air. It is gouken’s zoning tool. Adon’s strength lies in his pressure imo, not in hsi footsies. Try spamming st.mk a bit and tell me the results.
I agree here. Her options on attack are overwhelming in this game, and you have to make the best to get that knock down and abuse her whack wake up game. St. HP does a decent job against her st. mp though, it either trades or straight beats it, and trades are in your favor.
Their cr. mk is dealt in the same way as balrog’s sweep, st. HK. Besides that, both of those fuckers can be zoned the way god intended, so I don’t worry a lot about footsies against them.
This move is indeed a bitch. It’s basically the same thing as a Rekka., and you have to deal with it the same way.
Get hit by that shit 3 times, jump straight once and kill that motherfucker. You can jump straight randomly with little risk, to my knowledge.
The big problem here is also his walk speed.
This is one of the the reasons I think this match-up is 5x5, even with all the demon flip stuff.
Again, it’s never easy, but it’s definitely manageable.
Footsies are super cool to discuss, and it helps. Sorry for the long post!
Howling…please do not take this post as simply a challenge to your knowledge. It is just as much an admittance of my ignorance…
Bison…I don’t play footsies with Bison and maybe that’s why I lose to him hard. I get a sweep maybe once or twice per match, st hk to keep him out and buy me some space, kongo at about two characters away, cr.mp xx hado. St.hp is starting to look helpful lately too. He’s just too damn fast on the ground and his weird knee cross up bothers me. Anyway, anytime I am landing somewhere behind him that is not right next to him, I need to build into my muscle memory to kongo that damned hk.
My st.mk thrown out against Adon is mediocre to crap at best. I have used it to punish after the jaguar kick (god I can’t stand that move) although sometimes my mk is blocked, and have stuffed jaguar kick with psychic luck a few times. Problem is that I can’t get the timing down to when to stuff/punish I guess. It doesn’t stuff it after he’s coming down over you or right in front of you, only in the startup where he’s rising. I usually don’t have that kind of reaction. I don’t like it one bit to be honest. If you could give me more specific spacing, timing etc, maybe you could convince me…
Sagat can definitely punish you if you kongo a space and a half away…with tiger knee, kara uppercut after angry scar, u1,u2…and I just spent half a day playing one of the best Sagats so I do kind of know what I am talking about. I’m not saying he can react at first, but if you are making a habit of it it’s going to be lights out and fast. I know, you said use sparingly…but why at all? At a dash and a half away? To catch a standing hk? I guess but I’d have to see you put it in action.
it’s all good i’ve been on holiday and only got back this weekend, so your reply is great timing.
cr.hk doesn’t out range bisons st.mk under any circumstances, and bisons hitbox out prioritises goukens so whilst they both startup in 6 frames he will beat yours clean most of the time. Interestingly, cr.hk outranges bisons st.hk but only when crouching. now that sounds kinda funny obviously, since its a crouching hard kick, but when you consider footsies the crucial element is manouvreing into position to strike at your maximum range. since gouken can’t crouch and walk at the same time it means if you want to use cr.hk to try and outfootsie bisons st.hk you have to stand up and move into position, and since bisons st.hk massively outranges a standing gouken in practise you will find that if you try to use cr.hk vs bisons st.hk in a real life footsie scenario you will get kicked in the face before you get into cr.hk range. If you sit tight and wait for bison to walk in, then you can beat his st.hk with your cr.hk, but a crouching gouken makes bison want to chip with lk scissors (which go over sweep anyway). also bison wants to use st.mk over st.hk because it has better range and a better hitbox, st.hk is used up close on frame adv to counter hit or snipe jumpers. At least thats how i play bison.
fireballs get fadc’d through, although they are good to throw out, they’re not bad or anything, but bison doesn’t care about them really. esecially when he has meter. kongo is a losing startegy as i’ve explained mathematically! and yep i agree that his walk speed is important and one of the main reasons his footsies dominate goukens, on top of his buttons being better for poking, breaking amour and chipping safely.
st.mk doesn’t beat sagats st.mk or st.hk unless you do your move way out of range and hit sagat at the tip of his move which also has to be done out of range. Now considering that sagat can’t OS fish with these moves like sakura or zangief can with cr.mk x srk or st.lk x green hand for example, this scenario will not occur in a real game. Sagat will not hit st.hk from mid screen, he will tiger shot you and when you get in range he will hit st.hk. If you go to training mode and move gouken into range where your st.mk will hit a stationary sagat you will see it loses to sagat’s st.mk cleanly most of the time and st.hk almost 100% of the time.
kongo at the sweet spot for ex tiger shot and lk tiger knee? i don’t see that working vs a sagat who knows his ranges.
st.hk is hilarious vs gouken. also goukens fat old man hitbox is so evident if you try to use cr.hk vs his st.hk. also you have the same problem of having to stand up and get kicked in the face to get into range vs his st.hk. cr.lk is goukens best/only real tool here
i was just rambling when i mentioned his armour breaking specials. i know st.mk is the anti special move buttons vs adon but its actually nullified by his st.hk which beats every single one of your pokes unless you try to poke from way out of range and hope adon is for some unknown reason doing the same, you st.hp is godlike at beating way out of range pokes from basically everyone. but its irrelevant in actual matches vs good comp. we agree on makoto although i think st,hp is too slow to use as a real footsie tool outside of pressing it out of range and your opponent doing the same.
alo i see adon howl and go to the wall i just jump back, if he does hard or ex wall kick i get a huge punish, if he does lk or mk i lost only a bit of ground.
i do nail ryus with the st.hk too:) however my point here isn’t that cr.mk alone is the reason gouken loses footsies vs shotos, its that ex fireball from ryu, st.hk from akuma and f.mk from ken, in addition to faster walk speed and cr.mk x fireball prevent you from using your st.hk or fireballs or focus attacks up close.
i played gouken for a couple of months at the end of super, my matches on my youtube vs alioune were during super iirc
Don’t forget about that massive hitbox when he squats and during the start up frames of c.hk. It doesn’t fit under st.hk. I find using fireballs and anticipating his FA’s through your fireballs to be your best defense. When he is right up in your sweep range it is going to fall to cr.mp xx fireball and c.lk and kongo to push him back out or keep him honest. At the further range, when he is trying to FA in, he has quite a distance covering dash. Try dashing in after your fireball for a forward throw into safe jumps or using a sweep (no dash).
Another key is know when you can coutnerpoke after a scissor kick with cr.mp xx fireball and when you can’t. When bison has meter you have to watch out for the scissor kick, EX scissor kick on your counter poke. This is also countered with EX counter as he is most likely to go to c.lk to continue his strings or go for EX scissor to beat your counterpoke. Course, after the first time you can probably expect to see an EX PC next but just saying.
I explained how I deal with Bison FADCing through fireballs above, but you know I disagree with you on Kongo. I’ll admit you have a beter case with the way Kongo works (or doesn’t shouldn’t I say) now, but I won’t give up on Kongo. If your opponent never empty jumps you in a match, anytime you would have used kongo would have been a 100% hit. It’s like saying never ever SRK on your wakeup even if your opponent is doing the same exact thing everytime cause you would only get 150 dmg but could lose so much more. At some point you have to teach them some respect, right? For the record, I’m not a fan of kongo super unless you get the whole super, which in most cases, you don’t. You get just as much damage by FADCing and EX tatsu for 1 bar less.
Anyway, I know you and I will always disagree on Kongo 
Agree here. c.lk is all you really have as a poke. Take any opportunity you can to get a hard knockdown so you can pressure. My worst nightmare is a Sagat who rushes me down. He just beats everything. I’m most comfortable just outside of TK range or further so I can EX tatsu or c.hp his jumps if he ever tries any, and get a sense and rhythm of his fireballs at 3/4 to full screen it is entirely possible to MP palm react offline, I was doing it today. Full screen requires a dash which allows you to judge before you throw it, though you literally only have a split second or so.
Fuck Adon. Still hate this matchup even with everything I know. Makoto, yeah, when you get the opportunity to play a REALLY good Makoto, you’re going to cry. You are pretty free on wakeup to a makoto outside of using EX tatsu. Between the option selecting backdash into their command throw, the st.lp (I think) for your neutral jumps, her badass pokes and throws… When she is in, it is hell to get her out or reverse the pressure. That being said, your goal should be to keep her out with fireballs, constant fireballs, everything into fireballs. She has an obnoxiously long dash so if he is FADCing through them you can sweep or dash to throw if you re predicting the FADC. You have to have really good reactions for this. Seriously, once she is in, your only hope is to EX tatsu or Kongo to reverse the pressure but because of her dmg potential you really have to pick your spot and hope you guessed right.
I’m ok playing shotos. I have a problem when they start focusing in my face. I know about EX tatsu but I never react fast enough and if they backdash to bait it… yeah.
Ken is much safer to focus against then Ryu. Just do level 1’s when Ken is near f+mk range, hit him with the level 1 and backdash. Get and keep that buffer. Never aim to crumple ken as he will just HP shoryu you after his f+mk.
Also, what’s your youtube channel? I’d like to see.
http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=GB#/profile?user=themullah&v=lQaAazhhv7A&view=videos
I just labour the point that Kongo is bad in the hopes that people learn to stop pressing buttons and just block. I actually use Kongo a lot, but not often in “get the he’ll off me situations” moreso on reaction to stuff or in scenRios like safe jump setups where there’s a high probability the pop will attack as anticipated
Hey I use the level 1 fa vs ken too, it’s really the only matchup I use it in, do u have any other use for it?
My YouTube channel is kinda dead!
That doesn’t take me to your channel FYI. It’s so hard to find a damn user in youtube.
Also, no, I only use FA level 1s vs ken on a regular basis when the ken is a step kicking happy fool. Also take note of how he likes to follow up his f+mks as low counter will stop c.mk, sweep, and srk cold. Loses to kara throw, which they won’t do at max distance.
Before this thread turns into match-up info:
I looked at the loctest videos again, and there was a certain match (Gouken vs Ibuki) where Gouken MP Kongoed Ibuki’s f+LK.
I went to the training mode and tried this: Gouken got countered out. I guess MP Kongo’s armour box is extended downwards, opposite of what I expected.
Link?
Maybe all boxes got buffed?
Around 12:20
FYI, there is no other normal where she kicks like that, so I’m sure it is f+LK.
http://www.youtube.com/user/themullah
sorry i was using my ipad and when it’s not making me type like a spastic it’s providing links that dont work on PCs. i dont use my youtube channel much, no ae vids, just 2 gouken vids i think
Nice find, I hadn’t noticed that.
Hmm good catch. I wonder what the hitboxes for Kongo look like now.
Seeing how mid kongo caught a f+LK from Ibuki, the hitboxes had to have been enlarged by a fuckton. Like, possibly to the point where high kongo works all the time on jump-ins, really.