Here ya go.
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Brothers linked it at the end of his Comics Alliance piece.
LOL!
What I was saying was largely for the case of Batman. I didn’t mean to extend to every other fictional character or imply that the companies are right for not compensating people they should. It’s kind of a case by case basis. If I actually knew everyone involved in Batman’s creation (because it’s not as simple as Superman’s creation) I would say their names instead of DC comics I guess. Maybe I should just say “A bunch of jews yos!”
A lot of stuff I know about Kane is from DC’s Sal Amendola, one of my professors who really disliked Kane. He never went into the specifics about how Kane being the only one credited with Batman’s creation ever came about though. Just that he wasn’t the only one involved.
It’s funny but it’s a similar situation when Kirby’s estate tried to claim rights to Spider-Man because of the ideas Kirby contributed to his creation. I personally would say Ditko is more important to Spider-Man just for creating the costume alone. I get that there are many people involved with the creation of a lot of these characters and hey in a perfect world everyone should be compensated.
Man am I the only one who like actuall is kind of looking forward to this? Been wanting something like this after I first read watchmen 10 years back.
I will check out the kubert one because I am a fan of his work
@Kane/Finger convo: Will Eisner called Bob Kane a fraud in a more-or-less kinda way in the book EISNER/MILLER. kinda funny.
Eisner also refers to Kane as a “very lucky man”, which I took in a couple ways. 1, By happenstance, Kane is one of the few of his generation to get more than a pot to piss in. 2. Kane was “lucky” and others weren’t–meaning that he was given an opportunity to right some wrongs and didn’t take it, preferring to benefit himself.
In the case of Spider-Man, Steve Ditko is the creator. Almost entirely. The version of the character that Lee and Kirby kicked around was nothing like Spider-Man except for the name and age of the character.
Lee considers himself sole creator because he defines “creation” as that initial spark of an idea. As far as I’m concerned, that’s completely stupid, but at least he’s honest about it.
Siegel and Shuster are an interesting case because there are some parallels with Kane. Once again, it was a matter of strong-arming DC based on an upcoming movie release. The difference was, it was Neal Adams rounding up some like-minded comics people and making some noise on Siegel and Shuster’s behalf. Warner Bros. wasn’t in danger of losing the movie, but it was in danger of some very bad publicity.
Siegel was scraping to get by in the industry. Shuster was nearly blind and working for the postal service. When the small coalition of comic artists threatened to start blabbing to the newspapers about how the newest big-budget movie superhero was created by people now living in poverty, DC agreed to give Siegel and Shuster a small stipend. It was peanuts, but at least it wasn’t nothing.
And they got to meet the president of the United States, which was probably pretty cool.
Even without all of this noise in the background I have no interest in either a prequel or a sequel to Watchmen.
Watchmen to me just seems like a story that has been told. Not everything needs to be revisited.
If Moore was doing it sure because I’d bet he would have a reason to visit the characters again other than wanting to make more money.
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I basically agree with this. My reasons for not supporting this project are multifaceted, not just good ol’ fashioned moral misgivings. I just can’t see a good reason for this to happen. Even with talented people working on it… there are talented people working on a lot of things. It doesn’t have to be this.
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Since this thread seems to have blossomed into more of a general creator rights discussion…
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Wasn’t Stan Lee the one who insisted that Ditko receive equal creator billing in the Spider-Man movies?
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How fucking shameful is it that Kirby’s name won’t be in the credits of The Avengers at all? Not anywhere. Not even in fine print at the end below the company that did the snack table.
Not sure how true it is but on that same link at the bottom there is an update that Kirby’s name was added, confirmed via Moviefone.
I can’t say I’m surprised that Stan Lee would say that, as much as I love the guy for what he’s done for comics. In his old age he’s kind of been a ‘yes’ man for everything and since this Kirby thing happened after Disney (who has been robbing people blind ever since they tossed the last bit of dirt on Walt) I don’t expect Stan to go against his current bosses like that. I have no real hate for the guy like I said. Very funny in person.
Big up to Marvel vs. Capcom 3 and Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 for crediting just about everybody behind the first of appearances of all of the Marvel characters in the game during the credits. Capcom > Hollywood. Yes, I had to take it there. 
:
I’m actually not sure whether or not this makes it better. Marvel still has yet to redress the innumerable other ways that it has screwed or tried to screw Kirby.
I don’t know how complicit Lee was or has been in all Marvel’s dealings related to Kirby, but as far as being a credit hog, his record speaks for itself.
When they’re be film as good as this?
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This is a pretty good read of people in the comic book industry sounding off on the Kirby and Superman lawsuits.
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/the-q-creators-on-comic-book-lawsuits.html
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Grantland had a nice piece on Stan Lee:
A few things leap out at me about this particular statement:
- “Yeah, that’s just how the industry treats everybody” is no justification.
- The “old Hollywood actors” comment seems to imply that the situation in Hollywood has changed for the better… which, right or wrong, overlooks the fact that the situation in comics is ongoing.
- “I never approached them with an original concept because I didn’t want to give up what i knew I ultimately wanted, control” is the kind of lesson that’s easy to learn in hindsight. Much harder if you’re a teen/early 20-something, with no precedent, struggling to put bread on the table in the middle of the Great Depression.
For my part, I just can’t cotton to any argument that tries to spin the behavior of these companies as anything more than exploitation. Yeah, they have the legal right, but it doesn’t change the fact that people who created nothing are making billions on the backs of people who created everything and received… what? A regular paycheck for the duration of employment, and maybe some pitiful redress if they’re really, really lucky. Yeah.
It sucks that this is happening
I will probably buy it when it’s all compiled 
Has the participation of certain creators in Before Watchmen affected how you view them or treat their work?
I mean, some of the people involved are players I’ve really enjoyed over the years. Azzarello, Cooke, Jae Lee… I’ve liked a lot of their stuff. I still consider them upper tier creators. I wonder what they have to say for themselves as they explain why they chose to participate in this.
Or maybe it’s better that I don’t hear anything from them. JMS has been pretty outspoken and he’s pretty much come off as a major jerk. (I define the word “jerk” as someone who kills kittens and punches children.) I used to like some of his comics but at some point I started to realize how he rarely finishes what he begins. I was already losing respect for him even before what he was doing to Superman and Wonder Woman prior to the New 52, but after what he’s had to say about Alan Moore recently, I’ve got no love for him at all.
The other day I was at a massive comic book warehouse sale. Basically I paid 25 bucks for a box and I could walk out with the box filled to the brim with comics. I found a full run of his Midnight Nation maxiseries, all 12 issues of one of the few stories he’s actually completed. A few years ago I would have been very curious to check that out, and at less than a quarter per issue, I should have jumped on those. But I didn’t snag those comics. Instead, I found a copy of Kevin Smith’s Daredevil/Bullseye: The Target #1 ( from a series which Smith never finished) and put that in my box.
That was my way of sticking it to JMS. Say what you want about Kevin Smith’s writing, but at least when he was approached about participating in Before Watchmen, he had the moral fiber to decline participating in the event.
JMS no longer writes anything I read so with him it’s a non issue I guess. He did write the script for the Thor movie and he appeared in it. I enjoyed the movie I suppose.
In the past I’ve enjoyed his work on ASM, Thor and on The Real Ghostbusters cartoon. I agree that he’s coming off as a douche right now.
I guess it’s one of those situations where you have to separate the art from the artist. I hate just about everything Kanye West does or says but I love everything he raps.
Not to stray from the topic even further but I sort of feel that way about Frank Miller after he spoke out against the Occupy Wall Street movement. I work really close to Wall Street so this is much more of a personal issue. It does make me look at his Dark Knight book a bit more jaded since Ronald Reagan is in it, AKA the Republican super hero.
Ah well he too isn’t writing anything I’m reading currently. Maybe in 2025 when All-Star Batman and Robin continues this will be a problem. Jim Lee actually thought about drawing the next issue in a dream! SO CLOSE!
Some of the more disturbing comments made by creators remind me that, in its heart of hearts, this generation of comic artists is substantially made up of people who were fans of comics growing up–and that’s how they’re viewing this thing. They’re not putting themselves in the shoes of the creator who was made big promises by snake oil salesmen. They’re putting themselves in the shoes of kids who don’t know or care how the comics get made as long as they’re super-awesome.
I’d wonder how Grant Morrison feels about this, but he’d probably come back with a detailed explanation of how we’re all components of a larval super-organism receiving packets of information from a communal over-verse of shared consciousness, at which point I would forget what I ever asked him in the first place.
Honestly this hasn’t effected my opinion of anyone at all, I realized long ago JMS is a prick and stop supporting his newer stuff and I plan on picking up what I like from this series. The main thing it’s affected opinion wise are the fans thmselves, don’t wanna supoprt? DOn’t buy it, don’t at like a fucking cock to anyone who’s interested in this. Seen way to many people feel that being against this puts them on some pedastal.