Competitive or not

[Ceirnian]

@ceirnian, there are a poop-ton of scrubs on SWF, but there also are exponentially more people in the early competitive brawl scene than there were in the melee scene. This means that more glitches, abusable or not, get discovered way faster. In my opinion I see the brawl development now as being about where the melee scene was in '03-'04, with a lot of new people being behind the curve. What I mean is that we’ve discovered most “techs” that are going to affect the game long-term and the only thing left is learning the matchups.

The reason I have an account here is because even though lots of people here are picking up smash recently, there are almost no stupid annoying whiny scrubs here. It would be nice if we also did without people bashing melee who didn’t even play it.

Scrub or no, if you didn’t get into melee enough that you got past the tech barrier (i.e. you and your opponent know and have integrated all necessary techs) tech skill wasn’t an issue. Once you got past pools at most tournaments tech wasn’t an issue in melee because everyone had it. Matches in melee where execution was what separated the victor from the loser were boring for both people, and you shouldn’t judge the competitive melee scene based on your perception of its tech skill.

“tech skill” in melee was nothing more than execution. Anything past the bare-bones basics was just smart play. If you think that every good fox/marth/sheik/falco played the same way then you can’t really see what’s going on in a melee match.

I Agree with most of that. However once you learn the tech skill needed in melee you sort of just get into the mindset of “why doesn’t everyone do this?”. I knew how to L cancel / wavedash and whatnot, I just did not like playing the game that way. Brawl is abit more slow paced and puts more emphasis on mindgames because there is a very low execution barrier to get into the game.

Since you aren’t one of those people who says OMG MELEE > BRAWL AND BRAWL SUX LOL I’ll just put it simply, no flames involved. I enjoy Brawl more than Melee. It might just be because it’s a slower pace game and I’ve had my fill of fast pace 2d fighters, or it might be because the game (to me) is more about setups rather than true combos (had a lot of experience with those, and it’s kind of fun not to have everything guaranteed). Yes Melee requires mindgames, yes Melee was/is a good game. I just get aggressive when people declare melee the end all be all just because it’s what they are use to.

Also the item/no item debate left be disliking SWF quite abit. It’s not only because of that (dealing with some of them at tournaments, ugh I want to punch them sometimes) but that’s one of the reasons.

[X_x]

Bum showed just how much technical skill could be applied to characters like DK, but it still takes so much skill for a DK to overcome a good Fox. I really think that the tiers and balance are better in Brawl than Melee.

Wtf? Since when does bum use tech skill with dk? I used to melee with bum on a weekly basis, he used skill with dk but not an extreme level of tech skill. It’s not like he’s multishining or something.

[System_1]

I Agree with most of that. However once you learn the tech skill needed in melee you sort of just get into the mindset of “why doesn’t everyone do this?”. I knew how to L cancel / wavedash and whatnot, I just did not like playing the game that way. Brawl is abit more slow paced and puts more emphasis on mindgames because there is a very low execution barrier to get into the game.

Since you aren’t one of those people who says OMG MELEE > BRAWL AND BRAWL SUX LOL I’ll just put it simply, no flames involved. I enjoy Brawl more than Melee. It might just be because it’s a slower pace game and I’ve had my fill of fast pace 2d fighters, or it might be because the game (to me) is more about setups rather than true combos (had a lot of experience with those, and it’s kind of fun not to have everything guaranteed). Yes Melee requires mindgames, yes Melee was/is a good game. I just get aggressive when people declare melee the end all be all just because it’s what they are use to.

Also the item/no item debate left be disliking SWF quite abit. It’s not only because of that (dealing with some of them at tournaments, ugh I want to punch them sometimes) but that’s one of the reasons.

I can totally agree with you that Brawl allows you to get past the execution barrier very quickly and that makes it possibly a better game to grow a community on. I think the main reason that people (maybe this includes me) get defensive when people over-emphasize the execution barrier in melee is because we just got used to playing with people who were just as far over that barrier as we were.

At this point, I would have to say that I like melee and brawl equally, but I definitely play brawl more because it’s more fun for people who don’t care to play melee enough to put the “advanced techs” (stupid name, very elitist) into play.

I apologize if things I said came off as attacking or flaming, but SWF sometimes leaves me in the bad habit of assuming the worst of people I haven’t heard of instead of the best.

[Keits]

The execution barrier is slowly growing with Brawl.

[media=youtube]uV8NmhSBXmw[/media]

Dribbling with Diddy = L + C-stick direction + Control stick direction (all three inputs near simultaneous) then about 10-20 frames later with precise timing, the A button (don’t know exactly how many frames or how big the window is because of no AR). There are so many variations that happen with dribbling too that are hard to master, most of which involve pivoting after the dribble.

This is not an excecution barrier. This is something you need only bother with if you are a Diddy player, and you have 35 or so other characters to choose from if you dont want to deal with putting this to muscle memory. Melee’s problem was they you pretty much needed one or two of the universal techniques/glitches to even begin to become competitive.

[System_1]

This is not an excecution barrier. This is something you need only bother with if you are a Diddy player, and you have 35 or so other characters to choose from if you dont want to deal with putting this to muscle memory. Melee’s problem was they you pretty much needed one or two of the universal techniques/glitches to even begin to become competitive.

dude shut up and go play mario party.

[Tigerboi]

dude shut up and go play mario party.

BECAUSE ONLY REALL MEN PLAY BRAWL.

Oh wait…

Anyway, Is there a problem with what he said? His statement sounds about right to me.

Alpha: you make it sound as if DSHLing is hard. lol.

[Keits]

There is stuff out there for many characters, off the top of my head:
Infinite second jumps with most characters (Marginally useful)
Infinite clawing with Bowser (One of the more useful applications of the above)
Mortar Slide with Snake** (dirt easy)**
QACing with Pikachu (can be tricky, but is about 20x easier than l-canceling)
Ledge jump missiling with Samus (can be tricky, but again…)
Double short hop lasers with Falco** (this one is difficult, ill admit that)**
Weird ass shit using the PK fire with Ness/Lucas that is possible without B-sticking (this stuff is hard too)

You’ve spent to much time trying to justify items instead of learning how almost every character has little odds and ends that they can do to fuck you up.

I have? really? You must have placed your trueman-show-style hidden cameras on the wrong keits then. The real one has been frequenting chicago/milwaukee area tournaments (items off, bitch) and getting better at the game (which i told you months ago, if you think people who are new cant become good, you are an even bigger fool than I originally thought.)

So, ‘off the top of your head’, you named things for only 3 characters that are remotely difficult, you left out one of the obvious ones (metaknight infinite teleport), and you included some super easy and/or marginally useful stuff with a few other characters… leaving you proving my point. You do not NEED that stuff to play brawl and win. Period.

[Keits]

You wont find a single player who uses Pikachu and says QACing isn’t nessesary. Nor will you find any Snakes who would be willing to give up mortar sliding.

The only reason you don’t need that stuff to play Brawl and win is because MetaKnight exists (and I left out infinite teleporting because its banned almost universally at this point, even by EVO). However, to play certain character, like Diddy or Pikachu, and win requires a level of technical skill about equivalent to what was needed in Melee (minus Fox/Falco).

Your statement is

“Winning with Pika and Diddy requires some technical skill”

My statement is

“Winning does not require technical skill”

Are you seeing the difference? One is not forced to play as Pika or Diddy. And again, Mortar slide is one of the easiest things I’ve ever done in a fighting game. QAC isnt hard either. I was able to learn both of these in minutes, and im a VERY poor technical player.

In melee, you WERE ABSOLUTELY FORCED to learn to L-cancel, or you were fucked. Id be lucky to take one stock out of 4 off of my friends who were competitive in melee.

[Tigerboi]

yeah, I don’t see how anyone can call motar sliding a tech barrier. shit is stupid easy.

[DanielRGT]

My friend chris did the mortar slide and he told me how to do it.

I successfully did the mortar slide on my first try, doing it takes no technical skill.

[Tigerboi]

The shit just aint hard in general. I doesn’t even take practice.

[System_1]

Your statement is

“Winning with Pika and Diddy requires some technical skill”

My statement is

“Winning does not require technical skill”

Are you seeing the difference? One is not forced to play as Pika or Diddy. And again, Mortar slide is one of the easiest things I’ve ever done in a fighting game. QAC isnt hard either. I was able to learn both of these in minutes, and im a VERY poor technical player.

In melee, you WERE ABSOLUTELY FORCED to learn to L-cancel, or you were fucked. Id be lucky to take one stock out of 4 off of my friends who were competitive in melee.

dude i think you should try another game…like sc3 and use xianghua or something

[DanielRGT]

Thats what I thought about L-canceling and Wavedashing in Melee. Apparently though it really held some people back, so I assume everyone just sucks, therefor pressing down then up on the C-stick and the Z-button to mortar slide must be to hard. L-canceling was just one button, thats three!

What the fuck kinda crazy ass mortar sliding are YOU doing?

[Tigerboi]

Thats what I thought about L-canceling and Wavedashing in Melee. Apparently though it really held some people back, so I assume everyone just sucks, therefor pressing down then up on the C-stick and the Z-button to mortar slide must be to hard. L-canceling was just one button, thats three!

Ok, but, you do realize that Keit’s arguement here isn’t really how hard they are, but the fact that one of them HAD to be done for you to get anywhere in the melee circuit? There hasn’t been a single essential brawl tech yet.

and im sorry, I though they were not HARD, I found wding and lcing to be alot harder than fucking mortar sliding.

DC should really stop posting btw.

[DanielRGT]

Ok, but, you do realize that Keit’s arguement here isn’t really how hard they are, but the fact that one of them HAD to be done for you to get anywhere in the melee circuit? There hasn’t been a single essential brawl tech yet.

and im sorry, I though they were not HARD, I found wding and lcing to be alot harder than fucking mortar sliding.

DC should really stop posting btw.

And I agree with Keits points.

[Tigerboi]

Thats a no-hit mortar slide, where you don’t need to hit the opponent to do the slide.

wtf? That’s how I did it the FIRST TIME I ever did it. In ONE TRY.

He said you had to be technical to win in Melee and you don’t in Brawl. Except, you didn’t have to be technical in either game. In Melee, you could use Sheik or Peach in win. In Brawl there are just more Sheik and Peachs. To many people were cry babies when they got their asses stomped on with their favorite characters by Fox/Falco, when all they had to do was switch to Peach/Sheik if they didn’t want to learn how to actually play.

You just proved that you have to be technical in melee in this statement.

[DanielRGT]

I just think that saying to “not be technical and win in Melee, you can pick this character or two”

In comparison to Brawl, which has a lot more characters that don’t require being technical.

And the timing on the mortar slide is pretty lenient.

[Keits]

dude i think you should try another game…like sc3 and use xianghua or something

I like me over you in ANY other game. You have no idea who you are speaking at, son. I play everything.

EDIT - and for the record, i did main Peach in melee when I did bother playing it, and it was still extremely difficult to compete with people who were rushing my shit down with l canceled short hopped air attacks.

Melee and Brawl are like comparing night and day when it comes to the (currently) ammount of technical skills you need to possess to compete.

EDIT2 - Now i remember why i had you on ignore AZ. You are, somehow, even more hard headed than me.

[mugetsu]

My friends out in LA were SSBM masters, and haven’t gone back since.

The fact is metaknights, snakes, etc. are balanced in comparison to what is possible with most other characters.

I constant peach, lucas, ness, ganon, snake and sonic. One of my pals constants wario, luigi, CF and DK. The other uses zelda, samus/ ZSS, pokemon trainer, peach, and has an amazing IC.

Last weekend we had some unbelievably cinematic matches, and I would say they took more skill to accomplish good hits than even tekken or SF (though I love both).

The fact is people just need to discover the limits of the system, which is minimal. There is so many offensive and defensive movements and decisions to make at any one time that once you’ve come to terms with all of them the game play runs smooth as silk. To be able to setup attack strings, good rolling, dodging, grab placement for follow ups and being able to use ledge play to an advantage really ups the game play overall.

I know that right now theres alot of snakes and metaknights, but with the interest in the series so high now, creative uses for veteran characters and the other assortment of characters that seem unused in tournaments will start to show up more. I have some peach moves that I have yet to see in any brawl match videos, so I know that it’ll just take a few more months to get things really balanced out competitively.

Though I’m sure the people that really play SSBB to the bone know exactly what I’m talking about (if not more), some of you seem to be playing half-heartedly in the sense that there are more hardcore action oriented fighting games out there. SSBB proudly has a more definitive playing system, where if you are really as good as you claim to be, then whether you’re at 2% damage or 134%, you’ll still be able to come back and win it.

Outside of that, anyone know any good ways to film matches? I would love to be able to back up what I’m saying with video!

[System_1]

I like me over you in ANY other game. You have no idea who you are speaking at, son. I play everything.

EDIT - and for the record, i did main Peach in melee when I did bother playing it, and it was still extremely difficult to compete with people who were rushing my shit down with l canceled short hopped air attacks.

Melee and Brawl are like comparing night and day when it comes to the (currently) ammount of technical skills you need to possess to compete.

EDIT2 - Now i remember why i had you on ignore AZ. You are, somehow, even more hard headed than me.

i dont know how you cant freaking L cancel or wavedash and you play everything…