I was just bringing up another sport instead. And the Poker comparison is ok, but Poker is also about what cards youre dealt, so theres more luck in it than with fighting games. I guess when you first pick up a game and dont now anything then theres a lot of luck involved, but once you learn how to play then its like you draw your best hand every time.
I can see where that comes from in terms of magic and games like it but not so much fighting games, simply because the difference between having “fallen behind” in both of them is so huge, a losing game of magic can be like having your character in a fighting game lose the ability to jump, do specials or even do normals whilst being the loosing player in a fighting game generally still leaves you with all of your tools available so a catchup feature isn’t as important imo.
The poker comparison is about how both poker and fighting games are very much about being able to read your opponent. Cards are only half the story of poker, the meat of the game is in being able to read your opponent to know whether or not they’re bluffing. There’s a reason fighting game players make good poker players (e.g. Hevad Khan who went from fighting games to the pro poker player, before coming back to bankroll money matches in MvC2).
Basically like playing poker with both players knowing the majority of each others hand; they know your options and you know theirs, but not how they will use them.
Or that one part of the manga/anime Akagi where they played mahjong similar to poker with see-through tiles except with 1 suit being normal can’t see through. They described the psychological fear being invoked similar to being aware that you’re in a minefield with alot of visible active mines and a couple hidden ones.
Boxing comes to mind aside from MMA being quite similar to fighting games *no duh lol
I know that.
I mentioned your scenario explicitly in my earlier posts in that topic multiple times. Namely, the opportunity presents itself to skip those thresholds. In almost every single post I’ve made about the subject, I’ve talked about this.
“It kicks in dynamically when a character is at certain health thresholds and a player has the ability to skip those thresholds through properly managed combos and attacks unlike the lifebar in BB. But there’s a lot of thresholds to manage, and I’ve never really seen players deliberately try to avoid those thresholds to deal more damage on the follow up combo.”
“The point where guts could make a real argument for a comeback mechanic was if it skipping thresholds to avoid guts defense was an actual thing that players did. But as far as I can tell, that doesn’t happen. Feel free to prove me wrong on this one.”
“Once again barring the specific examples I’ve pointed out above (minimum damage, chip, skipping the threshold).”
“This character has the same effective health as a character that has 7000 + 1000/.9 + 1000/.8 + 1000/.7 = 10,790 health and has no guts modifiers (once again, barring the exceptions mentioned above)”
Your entire last post about it just covered something I’ve already talked about numerous times (with some math).
The main point I was trying to make with that in regards to GG is that due to the number of thresholds for guts available, it’s really hard to control that damage change and turn it into an actual comeback mechanic. Furthermore, there’s contradictory information on whether it actually applies mid combo vs. at the beginning of a combo.
Contradicts:
From: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?15601-Where-s-the-Beef-A-GGXXAC-Health-Tier-List
However, the point is still the same. Guts adds effective health to a character. How much health is added is dependent on several factors, namely how much damage you take right before you get into the thresholds when guts starts kicking in (whether combo or hit). If either player could realistically control the health bar of the character on guts thresholds to get that added defense, then guts would have more of an argument for being an actual comeback factor. But as far as I know, ABA is the only character who can really influence her life bar in such a way (don’t know anything about Kliff or Justice) in GG, and no one purposely drops a combo right at around 57% health of their opponent (or less depending if they have worse guts, or whatever threshold) to make sure their next combo stays unmitigated by guts.
Contrast this to P4A, where there’s only one threshold to manage, and the player near the threshold has certain options to force themselves into that threshold to get that added defense (super canceling, DP action).
Guts makes the lifebar misleading, similar to every game with damage reduction at lower health (I know MvC2, SFIV, and MvC3 do it). Because each character takes less damage per hit/combo at those lower percentages, it seems as if there’s a better chance for a comeback. The fact that people often forget about that damage reduction in the heat of battle makes that deceiving lifebar psychologically valuable for the player at low health. But the result would be the same if you just had a more evenly distributed lifebar, once again, barring the exceptions. However, the only exception that actually manifests as a comeback mechanic is skipping (or not skipping) thresholds in order to actually use that extra health, which isn’t really applicable to Guilty Gear in its current incarnation. Yes, it does happen that Baiken could get Pot Bustered FRC combo’d at 58% into some super damaging combo vs. the same combo at 56% doing less damage, but until I see players actively managing their opponent’s life bar as a strategy mid-game, I’m not giving threshold skipping credit for GG.
There are some mechanics that could change it so that having higher defense at lower health actually matters, as opposed to just having more health. One’s already been covered, the threshold thing, but that doesn’t really apply to GG as a strategy, just as a kind of thing that’s present in the game.
Some others that could be used are:
An attack that has super armor, but only against attacks that deal X or less amount of damage. Actually mitigating the damage through higher defense would make such an attack marginally more valuable at lower health.
Healing health. If you heal a flat % of your lifebar with a super or something, healing that flat % in the guts zone would be more effective in areas where you have higher defense.
As a different subject on comeback mechanics, what about mechanics that are more beneficial incidentally because a character is losing, but not designed to be that way? In most situations in MvC2, I wouldn’t really call a THC a comeback mechanic. The exception that comes to mind is if you’re using Blackheart AAA and he’s also your last character. Blackheart’s THC doesn’t activate flying screen, and thus he can combo Heart of Darkness into itself until he runs out of meter if he ever gets a chance to just start up HoD. You can technically do this with three or two characters left as well, but there’s no guarantee that your other characters’ supers won’t combo break HoD, and you’ll be draining meter a lot faster.
As another example, take Wesker’s THC after his OTG gunshot. Imagine a scenario where you have 4 meters left, one other character alive and you’re about to finish a combo with his THC for Maximum Wesker+other character super, but really, Maximum Wesker would have been enough damage by itself. Since you have two characters alive, you’re forced to spend 2 meters instead of 1, meaning that when the next character comes in, you won’t have enough for a level 3 right off the bat. It would have been better for you in that situation if Wesker was the only character left alive. As much as a niche scenario this is, it’s still a situation where a tool (THC) has become better (only spending 1 meter to kill instead of 2) by being behind (having 1 character left instead of 2).
Just tested it. Guts kicks in on every hit, not at the beginning of combos.
Jam combo against Sol:
Close 5S, 5HS, 6HS, 6P (1-hit), 5HS, 6HS-HS = 181 damage on full health Sol
Same combo against half health Sol (Guts doesn’t kick in for Sol until 41% health) = 158 damage.
May combo against Sol:
Close 5S, 5HS, 2D, FBHSHD, close 5S, 5HS, SVD, 2P, HSVD = 217 damage on full health Sol
Same combo against half health Sol = 178 damage.
If guts kicked in at the beginning of combos, Sol would take the same amount of damage from both combos, but he takes less damage from the same combo at lower health, starting the combo above any guts threshold.
So there you go.
IDK what it is about comeback mechanics. I love em when I’m losing and I hate em win I’m winning.
I always liken fighting games to Tennis if you want to compare it to a sport or anything else. 1v1 majority of the time (but can be teams), high dexterity required in order to be able to make the good tennis plays but mental capability to make the correct reads and outsmart your opponent. Huge emphasis on knowing when to go offense and when to go defense. Long rallys remind me of ST fireball fireballs, and who will eventually crack. I don’t know, but to me it just seems to draw a lot of parallels.
Sirlin’s article on slippery slope was written before SF4 and MvC3 came out, and I think he made some interesting points, especially regarding what he called “perpetual comeback” mechanics, which is what most people would label as comeback mechanics. What I took away after re-reading the article for the first time in a while is that, in Sirlin’s opinion (which I agree with), comeback mechanics are generally a good thing because they prevent what he calls “lame duck” situations and help matches stay exciting until the final hit. That’s not to say a specific comeback mechanic could be poorly designed, however.
I think it’s interesting that Sirlin commends Puzzle Fighter’s comeback mechanics, but on the other hand, a lot of fighting game players (myself included) think X-Factor is a poorly-designed mechanic, even though they share one major aspect: Almost winning looks a lot like almost losing; once anchor Vergil/Strider hits the ground with a few stocks and level 3 X-Factor, the game immediately turns heavily in their favor. That makes me wonder what Sirlin’s thoughts on X-Factor are.
Additionally, something I think a lot of fighting game players have overlooked - and something Sirlin didn’t touch on, to some extent - is the ease of which a comeback mechanic changes the tide of the match:
[list]
[]An ultra can easily do 40-50% damage, but activating an ultra without having hitconfirmed first is a huge risk, and one not normally worth taking.
[]X-Factor generally can be activated anywhere at any time, and there’s usually no repercussions to doing so, asides from its once-per-match use. On top of that, level 3 X-Factor with certain characters makes them better than a full team.
[]Awakening in P4A and Guts in Guilty Gear are technically comeback mechanics as per Sirlin’s definition, but it’s my personal opinion that the effect of both of these mechanics are too weak to be considered much of an imbalancing force.
[]At the other end of the spectrum, blue shells/Bullet Bill in Mario Kart completely annihilate the idea of risk/reward - there is no reason not to use them if you happen to acquire either item.
[/list]
What I think a lot of fighting game players would enjoy is a comeback mechanic that keeps matches close to the end, but still has a definite risk/reward associated with it, and most certainly not give an advantage worth more than actually winning in the first place. I think ultras go a good way towards that ideal, but I bet something better could be found.
Very true. I play tennis somewhat professionally (still need to up my game up) and I know for a fact that practicing the different forms in tennis (forehand, backhand, lobs, continental grip, forehand grip, serve grip, etc.) is equivalent to execution barriers in fighting games. Once you get passed that hurdle, it’s all about mindgames from there just like FGs. Trying to mix up the direction of the ball, the speed, the angle, its height; it all plays a factor in toying with you’re opponents head just like in FGs (footsies, frame traps, crossups, etc.). The similarities are so alike it’s ridiculous, but ultimately fun as hell.