Well… i need to work on my ass cody into a decent one for the time being.
You mean YOU would. I prefer it the way it is.
Yea i shouldn’t have said anything… my SF knowledge is not up to par with most people knowing if so and so change this, this would happen.
You ain’t gotta be rude dude. Capcom isn’t reading this thread and this forum is really just a place for people to post their ideas (however silly they might seem), which is all the guy was doing, so lighten up.
And It’s really not as good as you make it sound. There’s a reason you don’t see top level players in the world busting out Zonk knuckles all over the place.
I can think of several instances where I’ve punished an Abel/Ibuki after their roll/dash on my wake up with an EX Criminal upper, which leads me to assume the EX Zonk would work the same. And dialing a motion really doesn’t take as long as you make it sound either. If it were, DP characters wouldn’t be able to blast out of frame traps so easily. At least if Zonk was non charge, you’d be guaranteed to get it out in the middle of your opponents pressure strings without fail. In its current state, if you miss you’re left blocking for a whole another second before you have another chance to release. Which is enough time for a skilled opponent to work around your guard. (I’d personally rather have an EX CU that fulfills this purpose 100% of the time)
But in all honesty, you’re right. Discussing a motion change for Zonk is a waste of time as it does have certain utilities it would lose if it were made into a motion.
An EX Criminal Upper buff is what Cody is really missing (and probably won’t be getting either).
And EX ruffian kick.
EX Ruffian is fine.
I beg to differ.
Why’s that?
I feel the invincibility takes to long to kick in. Many a time I expected an attack, hoped to stuff it with EX ruffian kick (to help ensure an untechable knockdown), and get hit out of it right before Cody begins his slide. I’m tired of that happening.
This is just me and what I think, though.
(Incidentally, I have this same problem with EX criminal upper)
I, uh… believe he just did argue exactly that?
The point is, when you release Zonk, you get a free shot at it. If you release it too early, the move doesn’t come out, but you’re still blocking. While someone is mashing on DP in a poke string, they are letting go of block, and many times you see DP characters get hit when they don’t DP properly during a block string. That last bit about “if you miss, you have to block for another second” is actually a good thing, not a bad thing. Plus, blocking for another second is not really a big deal, is it? You make it sound like every time you block for longer than one second, you get opened up.
Ryan’s points are pretty much spot on, though. Reacting to (not mashing through) an opponent’s block string fireball/drill/jaguar kick with zonk is considerably easier than any other reversal in the game… I guarantee you see people zonk through Ryu’s cr.MK xx fireball 5x more than you see any other reversal, even from mid-level players. The option-select bit is also really important.
Even the bit about having to sacrifice a button for a second… to be honest, I would rather sacrifice MP or HP (usually HP) for a split second during footsies to load up a zonk than have it be a motion. You’re usually charging it on defense anyway, or during a combo/throw animation where you’re about to OS it. It promotes smart, well thought-out offense, plus the benefits already listed.
As for EX ruffian, I’m still of the opinion that it being projectile invincible from frame 1 would be way too good. That thing is like 2/3 screen, low, untechable knockdown, fast… if he could go through any fireball with it regardless of when he inputs it, it’s too free.
I see your point.
I don’t disagree with you. Its often reliant on you doing it pre-emptive (against the fireballs anyway). I wonder what it would be like if you could store it and release the EX Ruffian in the same way as a Zonk (i.e. Do the motion and then hold it like Juri’s fireballs and release the 2x kicks). That would be pretty special I think.
Long story short: the buffs are pretty crazy. Obviously, the major buff most Cody players have been looking for since Super is the walk speed buff, and I think that will probably be the more important buff. Most of the other stuff is pretty unnecessary, but hey, I’m not complaining!
More range on MK RK will make things like AA Bad Stone -> MK RK or AA HK RK -> MK RK more consistent, and will likely allow Cody to punish new things he couldn’t punish before, or make certain punishes more consistent.
The changes to Bad Spray are amazing. The end. In some matchups, you don’t really get opportunities to use Bad Spray because all the knockdowns are untechable, like against Abel for example. However, in other matchups, Bad Spray is a very strong option and can even be done on reaction to certain setups after certain knockdowns making it guaranteed. In these matchups, U1 might become a much stronger option.
Also, in regards to Bad Spray, I’m interested to see exactly how the FADCing works. First off, I’m assuming the new spray will be 2 hits and you’ll have to FADC after the first hit, so if you FADC, you wont break armor. This may not be accurate, but this is what I’m guessing. However, the part I’m interested to see is whether you can FADC it on whiff or not. This has never been discussed as far as I know and makes a big difference. Technically, Bad Spray is a projectile, so being able to FADC it on whiff isn’t that crazy of an idea, but I still doubt it would be possible. But it would be fairly useful.
Those are the buffs that stand out off the top of my head, but maybe I’m forgetting something important. But the other minor buffs, like the buff on his overhead are fairly insignificant.
I’m not taking “shots” at anyone or anything. It’s nothing personal like that. I was just getting tired of browsing through the thread and seeing all these people talking about Zonk’s motion as if it needed to be changed, or (more importantly) would be a better move if it were changed, which is not the case. and yet, no one was defending the current motion. So I felt the need to represent the other side of the argument, which I think is pretty hard to argue against once it’s laid out in front of you.
However, I don’t understand this:
I feel like this is the main reason why the people who are wishing for a motion change are doing it. Because even though you say you’re fine with the current motion, you’re really not. And it’s definitely understandable. It’s not the easiest thing in the world. I still make mistakes with it, and my fingers still get tired sometimes and I’ve been playing Cody since day 1. However, I’d rather have a move that’s extremely powerful in terms of utility and usefulness with the drawback of being difficult to use, and be able to learn to use it, than have a move that’s easy to use, but not nearly as useful.
It’s all good man. I didn’t mean to single you out, it just stood out to me because you said every Cody player would agree, which is really something you should never say regardless of what you’re saying, because you can never speak for everyone.
As I just said, I only came off harsh because he tried to speak for me when he said “all Cody players,” even though I couldn’t have disagreed with what he was saying more.
It really is that good, there’s just
- Not that many good Cody players
- Not that many matchups where you can really abuse it
- A lot of times you don’t see it because the Cody player option selects a Zonk but the opponent doesn’t reversal (or the opponent knows they can’t reversal because of OS Zonk)
Here’s a match (and matchup) where Zonk is that good: http://www.option-select.com/watch/?v=834
The reason you just don’t see Zonk all the time is because it’s not a move designed to just be thrown out whenever.
This statement makes me believe you’re kind of missing the point. It’s not about “blasting out of frame traps,” and I never said inputting a motion takes a long time. What I’m saying is that inputting a motion takes longer. And that extra time is easily the difference between being able to react to a move or not. It lets you purely react to certain things from ranges where other characters have to anticipate and buffer to be able to do the same thing.
Not even true at all. Being a motion does not “guarantee” a reversal during pressure strings at ALL. I’ve seen people get hit plenty of times trying to mash out a DP during someone else’s string. Again, the fact that you can attempt the reversal and option select block the entire time is nothing but a benefit. Also, the reversal window isn’t different on Zonk than it is on any other reversal. People just tend to try to release Zonk too early because they’re so used to inputting reversals that require motions, which takes longer. Once you get use to it, it’s no different.
The only downside to Zonk against other reversals is that if you try to release Zonk and don’t get it, you have to wait to attempt it again.
When Cody was first shown for Super, I thought his EX CU was fully invincible and I was pretty excited. It being only partially strike invincible is kind of annoying, but honestly, not even that big of a deal. The bottom line is that it’s just as easy to safe jump and nearly as punishable as EX Zonk on block (only a few characters have trouble punishing EX CU), so even though more invincibility would obviously make it work in situations where it gets stuffed, it still wouldn’t be that great as a get-off-me tool.
This + that you lose important tools. Other then that the motion is fine. Zonk could be a bit faster tho.
I don’t see the point that makes ex cu not a great “get-off-me tool”, just because it’s -8 on block. ALL reversals are unsafe on block, but that doesn’t make their purpose any worse. The startup is still acceptable since it would be invincible. it can easily be safejumped, yes, but there are various characters with such a burden (sagat, cammy, yang, dudley, yun, gen etc) and all still rely heavily on their reversal. also, it still would influence the opponent. they’ve to actually respect cody’s options when dealing with Oki on his wakeup, since it would perfectly counter meaties and late jump ins, where as cody is atm free for anything. I also see a great potencial for some OS stuff.
You can FADC bad spray without hitting since the hitbox data alludes that the projectile hitbox is not connected to cody’s body, unlike other moves with a projectile hitbox like fei long’s rekka, oni’s f.hp which are woven into their hurtbox and have to hit to be FADC-able. Another proof is that you can FADC after both hits, like in this video I posted some time back:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1hZI9lF9QQ&t=13m23s
it also looks like ´comboing into u1 is currently not working, requires incredible tight timing and/or is character dependent.
This is true. I don’t think about that often because it seems very insignificant to me. When playing footsies in a match where you want to be holding down Zonk, using HP to charge doesn’t really make you lose anything. HP Bad Stone is basically useless in that situation, and far s.HP is not an anti-air you should be using, generally speaking. c.HP is ok, but also not really something you need. I think the biggest thing you lose in that situation is the overhead, which says a lot, since the overhead isn’t that useful in that situation, either.
If you’re charging EX Zonk during pressure (usually after a knockdown), the biggest thing you lose is probably c.MP to push them away once they’re out of throw range. But even then, you’re on the defensive already, so simply backdashing or jumping away in that situation is probably a better option anyway.
I mean, for sure, you lose a few options, I just don’t think it’s a big deal at all. It’s not like you lose the ability to throw/tech throws from close, or b.MP or something crucial. I mean, you could do that to yourself by using those buttons to charge in those situations, but that’s not ideal.
EX CU can’t be considered great because when you compare it to most other reversals in the game, it’s extremely lackluster, not just in frame disadvantage, but in basically every aspect. Compare it to Ryu’s DP. DP is 3f as opposed to 7f for EX CU. DP is invincible until the hitting frame, EX CU is not. DP costs no meter. Costing meter is really what sets EX CU back. Having the ability to do stuff like DP FADC DP FADC and still be safe on block is very significant. Being limited to a single EX Zonk (or theoretically EX CU if it were a better reversal) FADC is…far from “great.” The difference between 3 bars and 2 in this game is huge.
Ah, nice. I didn’t know there were matches of AE2012 Cody players that actually knew what they were doing, somewhat, lol. Also, I would assume that the reason the U1 didn’t juggle there is because he hit with both hits of the Bad Spray. It’s probably similar to something like Gouken j.MP where the second hit has its own juggle potential separate from the first hit, but since Cody doesn’t have a secondary Ultra animation like Gouken, you either get the full thing or, like in this case, you get nothing.
mhhh that thought didn’t cross my mind since I thought the second hit put the opponent into juggle state not the first one. but if that’s the case the followup options are quite slim (ex cu, u2 dust). But I dunno, the time window where you can FADC the first hit seems quite small (smaller then ex zonk) then. Needs to be tested when it actually hits the consoles. For me it won’t change my ultra behaviour a bit tho, u2 is too versatile.
ex cu would still increase cody’s option by a great degree. it’s not as brain dead as shoryuken, but can be compared to rufus ex messiah, which is even slower and we all know that it’s still a great tool and changes the way your opponent plays. But it seems that it doesn’t happen, thus doesn’t need to be discussed at this point. ^^
I just wanted to say, welcome back Mr. Hunter.
Ok, that was hilarious, especially the first round.
Couldn’t have said it better myself
matches like these ones, for example, would definitely turn out different: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdkWTAu8YCA
A fully invincible EX CU would still not be comparable to EX Messiah… The reason EX Messiah is good is because even without spending another 50% to make it safe, most characters have to guess just to get a (weak) punish because it has multiple options for the ender (including doing no ender). A lot of the time, you don’t even get a punish on EX Messiah. EX CU is just straight up punishable. It’s not even in the same ballpark.
Just for the record, I was never gone. I always read the forums, I just don’t post much. When I think about posting, I think about the other stuff I could be doing that would be a better use of the time (like work on projects for OS), and wind up doing those things lol.
Mmm…we’ll obviously never know for sure, but something tells me a better EX CU wouldn’t have helped him much in that matchup… I mean, what would EX CU have done there that EX Zonk could not have? EX CU would have gotten beat by all those burn kicks, the same way EX Zonk or any other Shoryu would have, for that matter.
There are definitely situations where a better EX CU could be useful, but this wasn’t one of them, haha. I still know what you’re saying though.